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[Jaransan]

Im still not really clear on what constitutes a good summoner in terms of not being nigh useless compared to the freakish two shot glass cannon folk like the technicist due to the speed required to set up the summons and all. How many points would be reccomended to put into the individual summoning skills etc?

And are summoners supposed to stat each individual creature they summon personally or just toss the die, and call on the dm to make something ?

[Pneumonica]

Summoners have predefined summons, and those summons have predefined stats.  Essentially, the GM or the player might stat them out (although the GM will likely modify the given stats to a certain extent - you won't get exactly what you ask for in any case), but your character must research, investigate, and learn the identities and procedures regarding the summon (Occult's pretty handy for this).

Summon needn't be too high unless you expect to have to summon something in the heat of combat.  Bind's pretty useful, but like Summon it's something you'll likely have a great deal of time to utilize.  There's some argument as to whether Control or Banish is more useful - Control gives you power over the creature, but Banish is considerably easier to use.  If you have a high Banish, you won't have to wait more than a full round to Banish something that isn't higher-level than you should really be encountering.  Meanwhile, if you spend a few rounds at Control, the summon will then belong to you.  The problem is that by then either A) the summon will be killed by your allies, or B) you will be killed by the summon.

Also - there's an ongoing debate as to what can be Summoned.  The text in the rules reads:

The only beings that can be sumoned are those whose presence is subject to the Soul Flow.  Most creatures that inhabit the world, such as humons, common animals, and even some supernatural races, are not bound to the Soul Flow, and thus are not affected by the influence of summoners.

Some people interpret this as meaning any Being Between Worlds (including PCs who have been hit with spells like Chimera) unless their Gnosis is greater than 40 (any creature with a Gnosis of 45+ is specifically called out as being "beyond the Soul Flow").  Others interpret this as meaning that there's a specific category of summonable creatures, and it does not include all Beings Beyond Words.  That's a discussion on another thread, but it's worth mentioning.

[Itsame]

I was thinking it would be useful to create a few generic creatures (say, a water, earth, air and fire elemental) in a spreadsheet where the summoner player could simply input the level of creature he wanted and the sheet would then calculate all of the creature's abilities.

Because first spending a couple of hours on creating the summoner himself and then a couple of hours on each of a half dozen or so creatures for him to summon is just a little more time than I'd be ready to put into it.

[Sable]

If you are going to play a stand alone game I can understand you are not willing to spend so much time, but if it's a long campaign some time devoted to create a personality for your summons should be encouraged if no required.

I've been playing with a warrior summoner for a long time, and some of the best memories I have are about the relationship between my char and his summons: the neurotic and possessive spirit of a geisha, a playful kitsune, an oni girl whose hobbies where drinking and fighting, a lustful yukki-onna (spirit of ice) with the body of a little girl and a dangerous vice for gambling and a tengu with the personality of a drill sergeant (yep, all of them are female: for some strange reason my char was unable to summon a male creature even if his life was in it)

Thinking of the creatures of Anima like the summons of D&D (where they were less more than cannon fodder) is totally wrong, and they should be consider as companion npc more than anything.

ps. Keramane is writting some stories about his summoner in here --> http://www.edgeent.com/animaforum/index.php?topic=1922.0 , unfortunatelly the info about his summons is lost in the post about the online campaign where he is using it --> http://www.edgeent.com/animaforum/index.php?topic=1893.0 you can search there for that info if you are interested.

[Pneumonica]

There is an elemental of each of the classical types in the (sparse) monster listing in the English rules.  If you assume those are summonable, then you're all set there.  After that, a generic sola and shadowen would be needed, but not difficult to produce.  You might want a few random others - hypothetically, an "illusion" and an "essence" elemental might exist, and indeed you could conceivably create elementals of nullity (destruction) and pantoparchy (creation).

On the flip side, you could just create summons as you need them.  Since a summoner can only summon those creatures whose summoning patterns s/he knows, you have little difficulty restraining yourself to only what you absolutely need.

[Jaransan]

Wow thanks for all the info. And Itsame is right a spreadsheet for generic summons would be nice >.> summoners don't always have to summon the the hyper interesting well developed summons. Sometimes you just need a summon for the utility of it not companionship.

[Reverare]

Starting with a Luminary might not be a bad idea. A properly built summoner with a bit of time on his hands could bind one for 30zeon/day.

Then, when you level, move onto the elementals and dragons.

[Pneumonica]

Dragons as summonables?  Are these like special spectral dragons found in a supplement, or are you talking about the dragons in the main rules?

[Captain Jaeger]

There are dragons that are considered beings between worlds.  i think its the ancient one.  And im sure there are more.  Also, if you fought a dragon and bound it to a weapon or other item you could summon it from there.

[Sable]

I'll quote the post of Pneumonica in this string:

Also - there's an ongoing debate as to what can be Summoned.  The text in the rules reads:

The only beings that can be sumoned are those whose presence is subject to the Soul Flow.  Most creatures that inhabit the world, such as humons, common animals, and even some supernatural races, are not bound to the Soul Flow, and thus are not affected by the influence of summoners.

It's open to discusion what creatures can be summoned and what not, but I'll say dragons enter in the non-summonable group, no matter they are between worlds when they reach Ancient state.

[Pneumonica]

I will throw my doubt behind the idea that dragons, even the Beings Between Worlds, are in any way "summonable".  Also, I seem to recall AS at one point saying that undead can't be summoned using the summoning Abilities, and those are BBWs as well.

[Itsame]

I'd happily let someone summon an ancient dragon.

I base that on the idea that somebody not being able to summon such a beast is less fun than someone succesfully summoning a ultra-powerful, highly intelligent, extremely willful being that's almost certainly not going to be very pleased about it. Better succeed in that control roll real fast and pray the dragon will have a sense of humor about it afterwards, so it won't seek you out and kill you in some singularly horrifying way.

I mean, just picture it: You're the dragon now. A majestic, proud being of immense power and you're perhaps flying about the countryside pondering your own significance or something when POOF, you're suddenly transported to god-knows-where and some pathetic little gnat is somehow coercing you to do his bidding as if he mattered more than you.

Once you're banihed back, what will be on your mind? Yeah, finding the little turd and making him pay in the worst way possible - y'know, just to make an example.

[Keramane]

Keep in mind that though control is the big end-all way to ensure that your summons follow your orders, they are also USUALLY sentient too, so you COULD always just reason with em (as Mischa - my summoner - tries to do).

Personally, I'd recommend tossing together a few summons, or - if you'd rather - you could use the two I've templated in the Fan-Made forums.

[Lars]

I will throw my doubt behind the idea that dragons, even the Beings Between Worlds, are in any way "summonable".  Also, I seem to recall AS at one point saying that undead can't be summoned using the summoning Abilities, and those are BBWs as well.

The minor and major dragons (spanish terms, sorry) are Natural creatures, so, they couldn't be the target of summoning skills.
The Elder dragon has Gnosis 30, so it can't be summoned (Gnosis in summoning subparagraph)although it's a Between Worlds Being.

[Pneumonica]

Shows me to read the listings.     And I'd forgotten that it was Gnosis 30, not 35, that is the cut-off.  Thanks for that tidbit.

Personally, I think the best of choices would be to make a Dragon God creature and have Avatars of that Dragon God Summonable.  Thus, the Dragon God itself could have a Gnosis of 40 (minimum to have Avatars), and those Avatars will have a Gnosis of 25 (maximum possible for a Summon).  In this way, you can have summonable elder dragons but it won't be like commanding the greatest of Wyrms - more like commanding those individuals the Dragon God made specifically to be commanded.