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[Ape2020]

On the other hand, Feng Yi is much more for finishing enemies off. Feng Yi's biggest advantage is she is still quite a threat to a high LP and high armor enemy.

Don't get me wrong I love Jiang Pao especially for those pumped up ranged attacks and his cool attack.  But in a Wiss group unless your playing nothing but pansies and paper tigers your opponent should have other things to worry about then Jiang or Feng.  And if you don't concentrate on them early or they are behind more threatening units then they both are fast enough close any range distance just from walking.  I would use that wanderer slot for more useful units like Dereck, Sophia, Khaine or even Takasuke. 

I play both units in demos a neutral one with Dereck, Rayne, and Feng Li and another neutral group with Li Long, Jiang Pao, Lin Pao, and a Wiss Agent.  The only reason opponents try to kill off Jiang first is it might be slightly easier then going after Li or even Lin to break up the 3Ds. 

I even played Feng Li in a 300 point Wiss game against Samael and she was fine as most of the fire focused on Dereck, Rayne, and XII.  Feng Li killed Taka, Bael, and would have taken down Hime if I hadn't rolled a ton of 1's and 2's.  Yes she is a finisher but not threating enough to worry about until its too late!

-ape2020

[Hiro]

I even played Feng Li in a 300 point Wiss game against Samael and she was fine as most of the fire focused on Dereck, Rayne, and XII.  Feng Li killed Taka, Bael, and would have taken down Hime if I hadn't rolled a ton of 1's and 2's.  Yes she is a finisher but not threating enough to worry about until its too late!

-ape2020

Ah, thats where we differ. I like to pick off the most vunerable members first. With samael average firepower I'd rather try to pick off someone weak like Feng Yi. Its sort of like chess, do you focus on the opponents powerful pieces first or try to weaken their pawn formation?

[Sallust de la Iglesia]

Sounds like people need to post more battle reports to show how their strategies have worked or not!

[II ROFL II]

Next game I play with Zeru we will make a battle report. It's fall break so we will prob get some games in.

[Hiro]

Wissen's major weakness (squishiness) is largely circumvented by the fact that they can alpha strike just about anything into oblivion. You don't need as much defense when you explode your target before they can react.

That sums it up well. Note, I try to avoid using the sniper girls and instead take Goethia. The mechs not there to deal damage but it can do so. Its just meant to be a big shiny fire magnet so my other characters are not getting shot at. People always target Goethia when honestly the real threat is the Assault team. Goethia often dies in my games but it absorbs a lot of firepower that my fragile fighters cannot handle.

Church's heal is a non-factor if you kill a mini in 1 turn. If the assault team all gets their best charges in the game off on the same character, even monsters like Konosuke will die.

Often my games go like this, I target 2 key enemy front line fighters, I split my force to focus 3 on 1 agaisnt those 2 characters. I either crush those 2 enemies in 1 or 2 turns or wissenshaft gets wipped out. If I crush those 2 targets then I often can roll up the rest of the enemy. I don't even need the wissen snipers (though they are a BIG help). Goethia is a great fire magnet who allows the assault team to get into position. Then its up to the dice gods.

I have to say my favorite team is the basic full advance deployment team I posted earlier:

XII - (Nullum Lusec + Supernatural Weapon)
Lorenzo - (Assault team card)
Rayne - (Piercing Weapons)
Goethia - Valeria Strauss
Cordelia Rosalind
Veronica (Covert Operation)

This team quickly gives me map control. Often I've hit my enemy in and near their own deployment zone. I can quickly take over hills for my shooters and other advantages terrain for my use. Its brutal but you need to place your units well. Works best on tables with good terrain. Also helps close the distance against have ranged teams like Samael which helps a lot against Dinah led supernatural mastery teams.


Honestly, I say the biggest threat to my Wissen teams are:

1) Samael, they have the ranged firepower and status effects to take me down with just enough front line fighters to hold the line.

2) Empire with lots of Crit Mastery. Crits with high base damage attacks is the bane of Wissenshaft and Empire is the masters of getting crits. A few unlucky rolls on my part and Empire can quickly crush my squishy force. Also, with the right set up empire has a very high chance to get multiple crits which makes them very dangerous since they no longer have to rely on absurd luck to get crits. Speed and careful target selection is key and then is up to the dice gods. All it takes is a few crits to turn the usual rout that Wissen vs Empire is into a victory for Empire.

[Mroq]

I seriously can't agree with that.

1. Shooters. Cordelia, Alessa. They are good, Cordelia much better than Alessa. I use Cordelia with Fate Clock, giving her the opportunity to shoot every round, I don't use Alessa - she may be faster and shoot slight further, but she still lacks TO Camo.

2. XII. Cool, able to hold his ground as well as damage, my favourite combo is Supernatural/Ultimate Weapon and Veritas or Vox Nihili Versus Visio Dei. Veritas is 14/4 then and VNVVD is 9/4--11/4+2d10--9/4, which is a killer combo. As a shooter XII is irrelevant if we talk support hunting, there's no chance to get unshieldable LOS without getting him too far from the rest of the Assault Team.

3. Lorenzo. Low accuracy makes me use him as a second charge with combined combat and 1Power Point he gets 9/6 Throw 2d10, and if the enemy dodges he has 10 def 1arm, which is a good, ggod defense.

4. Rayne. Great Charge, but tougher chars don't fear the counter because 4x 6/2 is not really dangerous when you've got Armor 3+, Maybe if she gets Piercings it's a bit better. I give her Fate Clock so she can dodge one attack after special Charge or special Counter.

5. Veronica. One of the weakest stealth close combat prowlers in the game. Her 9/5 is less than interesting[compared to Harod, Momiji...], double 5/2 is something a warrior doesn't bother to dodge, so she can be treated as a support killer/pressure.

6. Celia - her 10/3 hits everything, but kills.. not so much. Her special Dodge grants that she is safe from 1-2 attacks per round, if she activates Neokinesis - 2. Good, but it's a dangerous game to tank on pure Def value, with no Arm/LP. The Process works there, quite good - 4 arm is what she needs. I always use Neokinesis Magnus when Celia and Rayne are on the table.

7. Feng Yi. I don't use her a lot, don't like the model. But I imagine Fate Clock/Ultimate Weapon or Supernatural Weapon/Combined Combat.

8. Agent. Only when I have points to spare and I can't afford warriors. WAgent is a prowler, which really reduces her straightforward fighting power. Her shooting is too weak, nobody dodges me. I imagine use of shooting+1AP+1Att/Def and Covert Ops on her, but I'd rather give Covert Ops to Veronica or Alessa.

9. Gears, ordered by pilots.
Frederick Mausser - only in Goethia, only to meat up the artillery - by which I mean fire support and cover for Cordelia.
Steiner Wenzl - great guy. If you play last man standing - but Grim is so slow, that you have to change the whole tactica to efficiently utilize him. Then - 2/4 AP is really, really slow.
Valeria Strauss - great girl. in Goethia she does as much Harassment as she possibly can, in Legacy is pretty much useless, unless you play 500+ double Leader and you want Reist in Grimorium.
Reist Ebersbacher - Perfect. Expensive, but perfect. In Grim he covers weaknesses giving the +1Att/Def and Critical Mastery. In Legacy, well, he just goes into Godmode. Problem? Unusable @ 300lvls or less.

First problem is, Grim and Legacy are far from being released, so we don't use them - not in official games.

Second one is, that it is great on paper. If the enemy has some brain, it is very difficult to charge one mini with two-three models, which is needed for Wissen to blast him to the stratosphere. Otherwise, I'm stuck in combat, in which case only XII can remain offensive - Rayne needs to dodge every attack - her 0arm 12LP is too fragile, while Lorenzo is weak on offensive if he loses the momentum or uses all the Power Points up.

Usually, two things happen. If I use The Process, my team survives better, but lacks those few points of offensive to break through enemy lines. If I use Lost Loggias, giving them full offence they hit really hard, but die if I don't kill fast enough. And it has to be really fast.

While I'm playing Church, I can turn Astraega off using both Snipers, but it's using 90lvls to block 40, ant he still has Evangeline. If I try to use Veronica, he just tightens up and I would have to suicide charge like Momiji, problem is I don't have her.

Two lists I've been using for 300:
Maximum Hitting:
XII
Lorenzo
Rayne
Cordelia
Goethia[Frederick]
Sophia Ilmora

All in Advanced Deploy:
XII
Lorenzo
Rayne
Cordelia
Goethia[Valeria]
Agent[+1AP, +1Att/Def]

[Swordwraith]

Assault Team + Snipers & Celia. 'Nuff said.

Veronica is trash, XII is one of the best characters in the game, period. Lorenzo is a powerhouse.

Wissenschaft is not exactly a deep army, like some others. Point, click, boom. Hit hard, hit fast, and if you're losing, you're probably not doing either one of these well enough. You need to take it away from them early.

That sums it up well. Note, I try to avoid using the sniper girls and instead take Goethia. The mechs not there to deal damage but it can do so. Its just meant to be a big shiny fire magnet so my other characters are not getting shot at. People always target Goethia when honestly the real threat is the Assault team. Goethia often dies in my games but it absorbs a lot of firepower that my fragile fighters cannot handle.

Relying on other people to play badly is a dicy strategy, but that's just me.

[Hiro]

Veronica is trash

Actually, I've stolen quite a few potions/piercing + supernatural weapons so shes not completely worthless. She does well as a supporting fighter to finish a weaked enemy off. The opposite of Azur assassins which are strong enough to take enemies out themselves.

That sums it up well. Note, I try to avoid using the sniper girls and instead take Goethia. The mechs not there to deal damage but it can do so. Its just meant to be a big shiny fire magnet so my other characters are not getting shot at. People always target Goethia when honestly the real threat is the Assault team. Goethia often dies in my games but it absorbs a lot of firepower that my fragile fighters cannot handle.

Relying on other people to play badly is a dicy strategy, but that's just me.

Well, if they ignore Goethia then it can blast then enemy every turn or even charge to lock a key enemy in melee. Thats a win win to me.

[Zeru]

I usually play:

XII: Supernatural Weapon
Lorenzo: Power Source
Rayne: Destiny (or one of the Clocks)
Celia
Coredlia: Nue + Clock of Chronos (I don't trust Fate Clock, seen it kill too many full-health characters)
Alessa: Covert Operations

This set up gives me an overwhelming amount of ranged firepower, and a extremely fast melee base. I get to pick my battles because almost the entire team can Advanced Deploy, and the one that can't is a 12/16 movement model that could catch up in a turn.

The usual strategy is to pick an advantageous position on the board, and claim it. This usually involves high-ground or an area that requires rough-terrain to move through for the Snipers.

Celia will usually bodyguard the snipers from counter-sniping/assassination attempts. While the Assault Team stands at the front, with XII hanging back a bit to lend fire-support (12/16 movement is plenty to get him into the fight if he needs to).

The typical first turn has me killing an enemy, or against tougher teams, heavily wounding them.

Depending on how close the enemy is, I'll either let the snipers or XII fire off first at a selected target (usually one that has moved already, thus spending AP), which high-ground they can't intercept XII's shots either, so they are forced to dodge or suffer some damage (I have seen people try not dodging this, XII ends up killing them half the time/and heavily wounding them the other half).

It is usually a case of focus firing down after the first blood, if an opponent is low on AP, make them suffer for it, you pick your battles since you have the speed to.

[Mroq]

I would seriously like to see you guys fighting Popsons church with that team and showing me how fast they go down... I dunno how he looks at it, but I'd like to see some fighting on the Vassal.

XII has 7/4 then, which undodged deals about d10+2 damage against standard def, so yeah, they have to dodge. If Astraega uses Fate Clock to dodge, she still has enough AP to make Romeo Immortal and then, what a wonderful scenario, he charges XII, being immortal. And XII can only try dodge'ing. Or anybody else for that matter.

[Ape2020]

Coredlia: Nue + Clock of Chronos (I don't trust Fate Clock, seen it kill too many full-health characters)

Was that before the introduction of Gnosis?  Because if it was after then that was some horrible rolling.  I've see in demos Danielle easily survive three straight turns of Doom tokens because the player decided to reserve one of his Gnosis die to avoid Doom.  The odds are greatly improved with that and makes Doom less scary.

Anyhoo I find most organizations work good against some and are weaker against others.  The same goes for Wiss.  Zeru is a very good player obviously so I would bet that makes more of a difference then Wiss being overpowered.

-ape2020

[Swordwraith]

I would seriously like to see you guys fighting Popsons church with that team and showing me how fast they go down... I dunno how he looks at it, but I'd like to see some fighting on the Vassal.

XII has 7/4 then, which undodged deals about d10+2 damage against standard def, so yeah, they have to dodge. If Astraega uses Fate Clock to dodge, she still has enough AP to make Romeo Immortal and then, what a wonderful scenario, he charges XII, being immortal. And XII can only try dodge'ing. Or anybody else for that matter.

In all honesty, he would come out on top against me. I don't play Wissen, and I haven;'t played much A:T in the last six+ months. Zeru, Izzvrae or ROFL would be far, far better suited to giving a good matchup here.

I think we should get more Vassal competition going in general, though, since the A:T players are so spread out.

[Honigkuchenwolf]

hum hum hum...

I've read this disccusion and the last on (Aima Art compilation) and Swordwraith? I've to disagree your statement in nearly every point...

First: I play primarly Azur Alliance and I win 80% of all my games with the alliance.
not depending what organisation I play against. So would that mean every ne else is playing Their armies bad and worse?

I've a gaming community from ca. 12-15 Gamers here in my town

I agree that Wissenschaft can hit hard. Really hard yeah. They have some of the characters with the highest Attack abilities (with special attacks) but they have other failures...

You say, if a wissen gamer can't destroy his army in the way you say he is a bad gamer and plays Wissenschaft wrong.
But this in mind I could say this for every Army.

You can't win with Azur? sorry but you don't use your arbiter orders ans assasins properly...
You can't win with Empire? sorry but you don't pass the right points for slamming with the tanks when the enemy has no action counters.
You can't win with church? Sorry but you don't use your Saints at the best and your inquisitors always attacking the wrong characters
You can't win with Samael? sorry but your charactermix is odd...

As I said before winning in anima (I only talk about anihilation matches) isn't about using the right faction. It's about knowing the strongs and weaknesses of the own army and also of the enemy. So you can try to negate with your tactic your weaknesses and hit the enemy where it hurts...

Oh and btw my second army is Wissenschaft. my current 300 Point army has no snipers in there (but an LE CELIA!!! XD) So I have to agree with some of your arguments... Team Asault is a strong team. But you talk like they don't have any flaws... and that is not correct.

[Swordwraith]

Oh and btw my second army is Wissenschaft. my current 300 Point army has no snipers in there (but an LE CELIA!!! XD) So I have to agree with some of your arguments... Team Asault is a strong team. But you talk like they don't have any flaws... and that is not correct.

No, they definitely have flaws. It is just that their strengths cover up their flaws much better than most armies.

You say, if a wissen gamer can't destroy his army in the way you say he is a bad gamer and plays Wissenschaft wrong.

No, I'm arguing against the fact that people seem to be implying that Wissenschaft as an organization is somehow weak compared to other organizations, which is silly. The implication that the Organizations are perfectly balanced against each other is also silly. Wissen at equal levels of player skill I'd argue has at least a 7-3 matchup against Empire, for example.

Sometimes, Faction plays a huge role.

[Zeru]

I would seriously like to see you guys fighting Popsons church with that team and showing me how fast they go down... I dunno how he looks at it, but I'd like to see some fighting on the Vassal.

XII has 7/4 then, which undodged deals about d10+2 damage against standard def, so yeah, they have to dodge. If Astraega uses Fate Clock to dodge, she still has enough AP to make Romeo Immortal and then, what a wonderful scenario, he charges XII, being immortal. And XII can only try dodge'ing. Or anybody else for that matter.

Haven't tried Vassal myself, but I'd be up for a few games once I get used to it.

As for the scenario you layed out, Astraega just completely opened herself off to be killed by either of the snipers for making Romeo immortal for a turn, and that would be immediately after she casts it and before Romeo activates, since the enemy gets an activation between all that. That scenario also assumes that Romeo hasn't already gone that turn.

Having XII locked in combat with Romeo for 1 turn isn't a death sentence for him, but losing Astraega to save Romeo from focus fire is.

Not to mention Romeo can only move 8/12, so XII can easily out-distance Romeo while hitting Astraega. Unless you play defensive, in which case Wissenschaft will use the Church's lack of ranged hitters against it.

----

It is by no means a walk-away game, as dice rolls can be fickle, but the innate advantage in the match-up favors Wissenschaft, not the Church in this case.