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[Zeru]

The counter-attack would never get off, since they will be hit, making the counter attempt fail, only Claude could successfully pull it off with his Cross Counter ability.

[Chattemite]

The counter-attackant can still couter-attack if he roll a 10.
Otherwise, only Claude or Azriel can "break" the chain of blow...

And yes, that's true, Empire has lower resists, but even with 10, you can fail your check... And then, it's much more difficult to protect the cursed character against an entire army than against Odin only. On top on that, when Al-djinn copy Odin, he loses his hight resist and become an intersting target for your new Arkham too ^^.

[Zeru]

True, I forgot about Azriel, although hoping for a 10 on a counter-attack for anyone else is pretty weak, but better then nothing I suppose.

IT wouldn't necessarily "just" be a cloned Odin you have to worry about. If its a Black Sun team, the Raxxor wielding Raziel's are just as deadly as many of the stronger Empire characters.
In a Dark team, they have access to plenty of high-damage models; particularly Ligori, who is capable of a 1 hit-kill on most characters with his Raxxor Slayer, and even the mighty Alastor, who is capable of a 6/12 attack and can generate more attacks with Arbiter Orders.

Odin just has the most "you die" factor, as his Chain of Blows ability just goes until the opponent is dead.

Its a matter of odds. who is more likely to fail a resistance check; an Empire character, or anyone else?

[Chattemite]

We are on the Al-Djinn's topic, so I thought you were dealing with the combo Arkam + Odin that allow the Djinn.
But even if your comment was about Arkham only... Don't forget the fact that, while Soul scravenger effect is easier to cast on an Empire unit, an Empire unit can survive more easily when cursed than anyone else, due to the armor. I mean : if the Black lion (for example) is cursed and recieve a charge + attack from a Raziel, he would suffer 10+ damage, whereas a Wissen character has no chance to survive in the same situation.

Arkham is a powerful mystic, but contrary to Bael, he's not more dangerous for Empire than for any other organisation, except Church. (And if you choose your targets, you can run it with church too... Hazael has "only" 10 for resist score.)

[Zeru]

The start of this discussion was how the combination of Arkham + Al'Djinn vs an Empire team with Odin = a whole lot of pain for the Empire team.

Arkahm on his own is good, but vulnerable due to his low AP regeneration. I only mentioned how the Arkham functions well as an individual because of your claim about the Empire team benefiting it more as a whole, which is false in my eyes, thus the inclusion of the Raziel's and Ligori.

The Al'Djinn is what makes this painful, because it can copy Odin with no effort at all and Empire is more likely to suffer from Arkham's Soul Scavenger (which leads to instant death with a cloned Odin), then the other way around.

Can the Empire team take Belith + Al'Djinn and do the reverse to a Black Sun team with Arkham? Certainly, but they have a higher resist score, so the combination isn't quite as effective as a result.

So the net result is, Empire suffers more from the combination then Black Sun would, thus the original point.

and I agree that Bael is more effective as a debuffer, but she doesn't have a combo that leads to instant death with the Al'Djinn.

[Ape2020]

We are on the Al-Djinn's topic, so I thought you were dealing with the combo Arkam + Odin that allow the Djinn.
But even if your comment was about Arkham only... Don't forget the fact that, while Soul scravenger effect is more easy to cast on an Empire unit, an Empire unit can survive more easily when cursed than anyone else, due to the armor. I mean : if the Black lion (for example) is cursed and recieve a charge + attack from a Raziel, he would suffer 10+ damage, whereas a Wissen character has no chance to survive in the same situation.

Remember this whole combo is if Odin gets a crit then he gets another free attack.  It doesn't matter how much armor, hp, or even special skills or powers (like Protective Shield with free dodges) the unit has.  Odin will keep on attacking and doing at least 1 damage unit the unit is dead.  Only the Black Lion might be immune with this death pact, and the leaders with their decent Resistance 10 (the lowest among leaders). 

Odin is specially in my Empire group for this reason.  I have with the Org Adv gotten off 5 straight attacks on poor Damion.  It made it so even St Elienai couldn't prevent the death.  Of course stopping the combo isn't that hard except for Empire, the best way is resisting Soul Scavenger, then of course is the roll 10 counter.   But even this I'm not so sure as the initial attack by Odin isn't a multiple attack.  Its just a free attack like an Arbitrator Order.  So there really isn't a chain to break, but I could be wrong in that line of thinking.  Of there is also intangible Raziel that could survive the first hit then all the rest are useless basic attacks.  Momogi could survive popping her death escape as well as Loki, but as you can see it takes some really special skills to survive.

-ape2020

[Sallust de la Iglesia]

A few units can survive. Momiji (once per game with Kagebunshin), Elienai (Higher level intangible), Black Lion, Iosara, (Not sure if Odin is higher level off-hand or not), Raziel (intangible upgrade).

But more importantly getting both Odin & Arkham into your team? Insanely difficult because it relies on your opponent. The two sides most at risk Empire and Black Sun both have ways to counter it (Raziel or Black Lion).

It isn't something I'm going to worry about. Facing two XIIs, now that is something I'm more concerned about.

[Zeru]

Well "surviving" is a relative term for the Black Lion and Iosara, who are technically killed, they just stay until he runs out of time (Black Lion) or takes any damage (Iosara).


On the issue of "cloning" XII or Yuri, the only comfort I see is that the clone would have a lower max AP then the actual Leaders.

[Ape2020]

Well "surviving" is a relative term for the Black Lion and Iosara, who are technically killed, they just stay until he runs out of time (Black Lion) or takes any damage (Iosara).

Nope Iosara would die with the next hit after turning into a spector, which will come.

Now onto a new topic.  Ash Slaves,

1- Does an opponent get VP for killing them? 

2- Do they count for things like Konosuke healing and Black Lion tokens?

3- When do they go away if the Al-Djinn changes into another unit after creating them?  At that instants or when the upkeep can't be made since the Al-Djinn doesn't a have that ability anymore?

-ape2020

[Zeru]

I'd say:

1) No, as they are created by the ability of the Al'Djinn
2) Yes, as they are still units, and killing them will still reap the benefits for those characters.
3) Hard to say, I could see an argument both ways. I'm inclined to believe they would disappear immediately, much like Bless would no longer be in effect if Evangaline was Sealed.

[Ape2020]

I'd say:

1) No, as they are created by the ability of the Al'Djinn
2) Yes, as they are still units, and killing them will still reap the benefits for those characters.
3) Hard to say, I could see an argument both ways. I'm inclined to believe they would disappear immediately, much like Bless would no longer be in effect if Evangaline was Sealed.

1: That would be interesting as the only thing close to this would be Romeo and his card specifically says his summons aren't worth points.

2: I tend to agree with this but it would be better to have it confirmed.

3: I thought continuing effects go on until they couldn't be upkeep anymore after sealing, heck Blessing was a major example of that.  Which would argue that the Ash Slaves would stick around until the next turn.

Oh and about Elienai she is very unlikely to even be tagged with Soul Scavenger but if she did, she might not even survive the first attack if it was say a Magmum.

-ape2020

[Zeru]

I wasn't aware of the ruling for Bless and Seal, or more likely, I just forgot entirely.

Elienai actually has a decent shot of surviving Magnum if she is at full health and dodged, its base damage is 6 and none of the following attacks would hit her. Odin only has a 4 Attack, so unless Elienai rolls low, he is only going to be dealing base damage.

[Anima Studio]

1- Does an opponent get VP for killing them?

Nope.

2- Do they count for things like Konosuke healing and Black Lion tokens?

Sure; they are units, after all.

3- When do they go away if the Al-Djinn changes into another unit after creating them?

At the Instant.

[Gunnerjack]

My opinion is that this model is really strong if used to copy your own models. The combo with Arkham and Odin is good but it suffers the same problems than Janiel Mark on Einjil, you mark the target than your opponent simply put it's model away from harm. This is very easy to do with a model as Odin that is slow and with low recharge. On the other hand immagine to field 2 XII in a Wissenshaft list or another Konosuke in a Samael list, that will create a more reliable tactic and a potentially devastating team.

My 2 cents

[Meliondor]

You should never copy a damage resistance creature. They have more life points than the Djinn :-).

But copyying XII or Faust Orbatos should be great! Or imagine it for church with its specialists: If you see that you play against light, then just copy Xavier to have 2 of them :-).


One question: If I copy an other character, can I still use his other abilities like creating agents (or upkeeping it) and the no-gnosis aura ?