next »

[Maclein]

It is no secret that many of the old characters are markedly inferior to the strength of new characters (example: Tsubasa, Yang and Lin Pao Takanosuke).
 It may be worth it to "raise the possibility"?
 For example, using special print additional cards for them (the team, the plot or the advantage or as a Iosara and Samiel).
 I think in this way rose to the sale of these characters, and at the same time the new cards.
 PS
 I write because of the fact that some old characters more and more rarely has the chance to appear on the game table.

[eternaldream]

I guess I haven't played enough games with all the characters to see whether or not they're underpowered.  I think the best thing to do would be to lower the levels though.  I think it would be an easy quick fix to the characters without having to add anything new to them.  I usually have a theme when I play though, so I'll grab a few wanderers just for fun.

[Auroth]

Disagree.

Dark Chesire will beat anyone to death with Summon.

And Evangeline is still one of the best support characters in the game.

[Ape2020]

I too disagree, right now.  Only a couple of figures seem to lose value and they for the most part hold up well with each new release.  Who overall is better at 55 lvls then Tsubasa, Kagemaru?  Two different types of units and they bring different things to the table.  Whose better then Lin Pao at 35 lvls with her speed and defense and max AP 5, Agents or Shinbi?  Or better then a 40 lvl Jiang Pao who you might point to Frey and Freya but Jiang Pao is has an advantage of being neutral and Max AP 5.  As for Taka, by him self for 45 lvls can match anyone else at that level with his unique skills, add his personal advantage card or team him up with Hime and I think he is just fine as he is.  


I think the perceived problem is that with each new figure less attention is paid to older ones.  All the talk is about making groups with the new figures.  Plus with more options there is less space for each one and thus you think they aren't as powerful, but they are, just in a more self-contained way.  Some models will just not see a lot of play with the expanding options, that doesn't mean they are getting weaker.  A:T is still one of the best games for avoiding power creep and I don't think you need to fool around with the older units yet.

You idea of tinkering with older units will mean some other unit will not see play.  If that happens does it mean they are weaker and need special additions to power up?

-ape2020

[Maclein]

2 Auroth
 I made no mention of Cheshire and Evangeline as a weak character:)
 2 Ape2020
 Comparison of Tsubasa and Kagemaru consider incompetent.
 Tsubasa - a simple fighter
 Kagemaru - the strongest rogue with an option Leader
 They are very different (and obviously more advantageous Kagemaru).
 Tsubasu better compare with other fighters of his class (lvl 50-55).
  The Lion, Colonel, Cheshire, and the like, better than Tsubasa. Macbeth, Ligori or Odin is far more dangerous.

[robosheep]

are you taking into account that being a neutral wanderer is basically a special ability that allows the unit to be placed in any list and surely something like that is worth points?

[Chattemite]

No, he said that comparing Kagemaru and Tsubasa is wrong since they are way too much different, and that Tsubasa should be compared to others plurivalente warriors of similar level, which I agree with.

[Ape2020]

Not going to go over a list of each 50-55 lvl warriors since each person places a different value on things.  But that all the figures you listed are restricted to their Organization or Faction.  Plus some can see advantages Tsubasa brings over even the characters you mentioned like DC or even Dark Lion. 

In the end with such expansion no matter what you do some characters will get over looked by players.  This is especially true if you going to play mainly 300 lvl games like most do.  I have used Tsubasa in a party that can't be targeted by due to base size, unit type, armor, or faction.  It plays havoc on Church Inquisition parties.

-ape2020

[-DE-]

Kagemaru and Tsubasa are different how? They serve the same function on the battlefield, have almost identical statlines, only Kagemaru is more powerful overall and has more options. Really, let's compare those two.

Both are wanderers; Tsubasa is a neutral warrior, whereas Kagemaru is a dark mystic/prowler. This puts him at a disadvantage against the Church and makes it impossible to give him certain advantage cards, however it also opens up other cards.

Attack, Damage, Defense, and Resistance are exactly the same. Kagemaru trades 1 point of Armor and 1 point of LP for greater speed (8/12 vs 12/16). Obviously they cost the same, however Kagemaru has 5 AP, which is a huge boost, something almost exclusive to leaders (and now optional leaders, even if they don't buy their leader upgrade). Kagemaru even gets 1 free summoner level (Darkness) - not that useful, but might come in handy for certain groups.

Next - Tsubasa has a 16" ranged attack for 3 AP, Kagemaru has innate ranged attack, meaning 12" and 2 AP. I'd trade those extra 4" of range for 1 less AP cost every day, so Kagemaru wins. Either way they can both attack from a distance.

Tsubasa has a super attack for +1 AP over a normal attack, which gets him +2/+3 and Healing L2, but only if he hits the enemy. Kagemaru has a super charge for +1 AP over a normal one, which gets him +5 Attack (way better than +2/+3) and a 16" threat range.

Finally Tsubasa has a super counter for the price of a normal counter, but it has two flaws: Tsubasa loses 2 LP, and counters are situational either way and don't come up as often as you would think. Kagemaru has a super dodge for 3 AP, which gives him a free escape and move action, and auto-stealth (there's a debate over this rule, but the intention seems clear). I'd say that Kagemaru's dodge is more useful.

While that's all that Tsubasa has to offer, Kagemaru shows his skills as a super ninja. He can hide, he has a special attack when hidden, and when he normal attacks or charges he doesn't reveal himself. He can also become a leader if you wish, but usually you will want an organizational leader since he only boosts other ninjas.

Considering all this, please explain to me why would anyone take Tsubasa over Kagemaru? For his super counterattack skill?

There are quite a few characters, mostly the oldest wanderers, that are substandard nowadays and simply not worth taking, being outshone by newer units: Akio (one of the most useless characters in the game, period), Tsubasa, Jerome, Hel, Duncan, Kronen, Shinigami, Janiel, Ignis, The Three Dragons, Feng Yi, Veronica... all either very situational or pathetically weak.

[Chattemite]

Kagemaru and Tsubasa are different how? They serve the same function on the battlefield, have almost identical statlines

[...]

Both are wanderers; Tsubasa is a neutral warrior, whereas Kagemaru is a dark mystic/prowler.

What else ?
I've found myself that Tsubasa works quite well. Seriously, Kagemaru is a fast, unreachable (is that correct ?) killer that crawls in the shadows, whereas Tsubasa is a defensive unit with some offensive abilities for occasion.
It's like comparing Alis (one of the oldest characters btw) to Grey. Nonsense, they are just so different you can't.

There are quite a few characters, mostly the oldest wanderers, that are substandard nowadays and simply not worth taking, being outshone by newer units: Akio (one of the most useless characters in the game, period), Tsubasa, Jerome, Hel, Duncan, Kronen, Shinigami, Janiel, Ignis, The Three Dragons, Feng Yi, Veronica... all either very situational or pathetically weak.

I agree for Duncan (althought he's not anymore "that" weak after the rulebook update), Ignis, Feng Yi and Veronica. Others are, honestly, okay. And Kronen and Janiel are damn good considering their level.
The balance of this game is not perfect (how on earth could it be so ?), but pretty good imo.

[-DE-]

What else ?
I've found myself that Tsubasa works quite well. Seriously, Kagemaru is a fast, unreachable (is that correct ?) killer that crawls in the shadows, whereas Tsubasa is a defensive unit with some offensive abilities for occasion.
It's like comparing Alis (one of the oldest characters btw) to Grey. Nonsense, they are just so different you can't.

Did you even read the rest of the post? Kagemaru has exactly the same attack power as Tsubasa, equal or better skills, but comes with extra few tricks. You can use Kagemaru in the exact same way as Tsubasa and not feel the difference. In addition to that you have more options in the form of summoning and stealthing. By taking Tsubasa you lose out on those options and not gain anything of importance (super counter - whoop-de-doo!).

I agree for Duncan (althought he's not anymore "that" weak after the rulebook update), Ignis, Feng Yi and Veronica. Others are, honestly, okay. And Kronen and Janiel are damn good considering their level.
The balance of this game is not perfect (how on earth could it be so ?), but pretty good imo.

I agree, balance is not perfect and there are quite a few characters that make me scratch my head due to absurd rules or killyness (Arias Vayu, Al Djinn, Covel... those units shouldn't have made it into the game, because they break it into a thousand pieces!), however it still is much, much better than Warhammers (throw out half the entries in each codex/armybook) and some other games. It doesn't change the fact that some units are subpar in competitive play. It's not just about their individual power level, it's more about not having a place for them in your army. Samael has so many useful choices that you usually have no points for Janiel, same with Empire and Kronen or Duncan - what they all bring to the table is usually superfluous.

[Chattemite]

Did you even read the rest of the post?

I did.

Kagemaru has exactly the same attack power as Tsubasa, equal or better skills, but comes with extra few tricks. You can use Kagemaru in the exact same way as Tsubasa and not feel the difference. In addition to that you have more options in the form of summoning and stealthing. By taking Tsubasa you lose out on those options and not gain anything of importance (super counter - whoop-de-doo!).

Are you saying that you could use Kagemaru without Stealth, Shadow warrior and Tenchu, and that it would work as well as with Tsubasa ?
Tsubasa is far more solid than Kagemaru, even against non-church groups. By his stats, he looks only a little bit toughter, but he can heal, can still deal damage when he's tied up in hand-to-hand combat and doesn't rely on a hit and run gameplay.
Kirin costs 4 ap. Most of the time, Kagemaru will risk his life by entering the fight this way, even if it is really powerful.

The best argument I can find is that I have seen Tsubasa on the battlefield at least 3-4 times and he's never been unefficient.

[TenNoBushi]

I must say the "power" of a character really depend on your playstyle. Currently, I don't see a character that need to be "power-uped".
Some of them could seems more difficult to play than others, but weaker I don't think so.

[planeswalker]

Also, how do Covel and Al-Djinn 'break the game in a thousand pieces'?

I'll agree that Arias Vayu is quite absurd, and I expect AS to admit anyday that they were drunk when they ruled the crystals counted as units. But the other two?

[Ape2020]

Also, how do Covel and Al-Djinn 'break the game in a thousand pieces'?

I'll agree that Arias Vayu is quite absurd, and I expect AS to admit anyday that they were drunk when they ruled the crystals counted as units. But the other two?

Your kidding right?  The crystal ruling is minor and really not over powered as many cried. 

Al-Djinn on the other hand can make viable units that have no drawbacks in making.  He can copy some very powerful units including leaders (which is absurd as leaders are really units with a 20 lvl discount), screws with gnosis, and in a reversal of my previous stand screws up AP rules.  I got him and read the card it points out his does copy Max AP and recovery. 

As for Covel he's a little more balanced out with his squishiness but still comes very close to being over powered.  Kagemaru is close to over powered as well, and hope there are more and better ways to combat stealth in the future, as the  many ways he breaks that rule make him as about as close to broken as possible.

-ape2020