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[Ape2020]

Okay I'm slowly but surely assembling my Corporate death squad and I trying to figure out what list I'm going to run.  Right now I got every one about ready to prime (except 005).  Here is my idea so far.

Clover
Demion
Promethia
2x Type-012 Hunters (Advance Hunters??)
Nk-X

Gives me a solid group of six but I wondering if I keep Demion or switch him out for a Razial (I have two ready to prime as well).  A little worried of Promethia's squeamishness but the other controllers aren't quite that appealing.  Any thoughts out there for those fans Black Sun.

Oh and I don't proxy but have most every card with a few exceptions. 

-ape2020

[Zeru]

I would keep Deimon with that list, as by the looks of it Promethia will be occupied handling the undead you have as it is. Deimon is also an excellent character in his own right.

[Ape2020]

Yeah adding another Undead unit would stress Promethia too much and expose a very obvious weak point in the line-up.  I guess I'll have to save my Raziels for my "I Don't Give A Poo If They Go Psycho" team.

Nk-X
2x Raziels
2x Hunters
Type-009

Kinda of want to do this one just to see how fast it goes out of control and basically plays itself.

Of course I'm getting Lynn and will be looking at possible Free Agent groupings but the ruling on that Org Adv is a little confusing.

Written is seems its one living Black Sun unit add a Wanderer and all wanderers get 5 levels off.

Then I heard its now the same as above but get 10 levels off. 

Butthe Hells ruling is sounds like Free Agents is almost a carbon copy of Manipulation in that you get slots for each living Black Sun unit and 10 levels off slots.  Which in a standard game really is just 2 slots for 20 levels of discount.  Might as well just given them Manipulation and avoid all the confusion.

Also add Shinobi to the mix and its one big cluster-f##%!  I was thinking of a group of like this:

Lynn Steiner
Demion
Shinobi
Drake
Cennette
Hime
Takanosuke

But the questions abound on discount and number of Wanderers I can take.

-ape2020

[Zeru]

It is theoretically better then manipulation, as you can take 3 non-undead Black Sun and get a -30 level discount from taking 3 Wanderers.

This Organization Advantage will get better as they get more non-undead characters in Black Sun.

[Akatskimilan]

Keep Deimon. He's totally worth it. He made me quite happy in the game that I used him in recently.

[Hiro]

It is theoretically better then manipulation, as you can take 3 non-undead Black Sun and get a -30 level discount from taking 3 Wanderers.

This Organization Advantage will get better as they get more non-undead characters in Black Sun.

Theoretically but not actually. Black Sun needs free agents because something like half their force is going to be undead or support characters with guidance. Its balanced by the fact that if do take 3 wanderers your very likely not taking any undead at all (at least at 300 points) so it limits what type of team you can build.

On the other hand, Manipulation works on wanderer slots which means that if you use a team card then that whole wanderer team card counts as one wanderer slot. Which means that unlike black sun, wissenschaft can field a full 6 man team without a single wissenschaft character when used with Shinobi.

[Ape2020]

It is theoretically better then manipulation, as you can take 3 non-undead Black Sun and get a -30 level discount from taking 3 Wanderers.

This Organization Advantage will get better as they get more non-undead characters in Black Sun.

Theoretically but not actually. Black Sun needs free agents because something like half their force is going to be undead or support characters with guidance. Its balanced by the fact that if do take 3 wanderers your very likely not taking any undead at all (at least at 300 points) so it limits what type of team you can build.

On the other hand, Manipulation works on wanderer slots which means that if you use a team card then that whole wanderer team card counts as one wanderer slot. Which means that unlike black sun, wissenschaft can field a full 6 man team without a single wissenschaft character when used with Shinobi.

Yeah with Free Agents you going to spend at least 120 to 180 levels on three good Black Sun or at least non Undead centric units.  Not leaving you much in the way to get powerful wanderers.  Now if BS gets some more cheap living units or better yet an actual org agent then this Org Advantage can be more flexible.  It just seems from the way they have been adjusting it and tweaking it that it was an afterthought as Dawn of the Dead was there only idea to go with from the start.   Really should have just went with Manipulation for BS and gave Wiss a different adv later on with the rest of the Orgs 4th ones.

-ape2020

[Zachilles]

I think the undead units are cool in concept but on the actual tabletop I find it more than annoying to have to stay within 8" of Promethea in order to get their full use and not worry about them becoming uncontrollable.

Like I said I think all the undead stuff are fun but this is the list I run when I know I'm facing some tough lists

300 points
Organizational bonus: Free Agents

Clover-    70
Deimon-    45
Promethea- 40
Faust-     50
Dereck-    55
Sophia-    25
Shinobi-   15

Nothing tricky, 3 amazing fighters, 1 half fighter half support, 2 support, and a shinobi to sit on nodes or run interference.  Promethea is just a buff bot for Clover but don't discount her ability doom or seal characters, I've found a lot of people will use a gnosis on those rolls even if the effect isn't super high because of how crippling they can be.

I prefer to have Deimon butler Dereck but you could easily put him on Clover thats just personal preference.  I like to give the Shinobi infiltration because to me he is just a node monkey, if you want to kit him out for fighting thats fine too.

I really love the fluff and background of Black Sun (if anyone has any links to good discussion threads about their background feel free to PM them to me), but like I said the undead are just too reliant on squishy necromancers so I run a list with more warm bodies.

EDIT** to clarify Free Agents, you replace the the usual rule for wanderers with this, for every non-undead model you bring you open a wanderer slot, all wanderers are -10 points in your list.  Teams that are sharing 1 slot only get to subtract 10 points from their total

[Hiro]

EDIT** to clarify Free Agents, you replace the the usual rule for wanderers with this, for every non-undead model you bring you open a wanderer slot, all wanderers are -10 points in your list.  Teams that are sharing 1 slot only get to subtract 10 points from their total

Thats not correct. Free Agents works on a per wanderer bases. If you take a wanderer team card, the individual members of a team are each discounted -10 points. So if you take Team The Condemned Lovers, both drake and Cenette cost -10 points and you are required to be using 2 non-undead black sun characters.

Its Wissenschaft's Manipulation that talks about additional wanderer slots. What you wrote is actually how manipulation works, not free agents. Don't confuse the two.

[Zachilles]

The Spanish Anima FAQ seems to disagree with you

Does Free Agent reduce the cost of a Team of Wanderers taken, such as Team The Three Dragons, by 10 levels on Li Long, Lin Pao and Jiang Pao?
The 10 level reduction is calculated by Wanderer slot, so in this case only one of The Three Dragons is reduced by 10 levels.

[Hiro]

The Spanish Anima FAQ seems to disagree with you

Does Free Agent reduce the cost of a Team of Wanderers taken, such as Team The Three Dragons, by 10 levels on Li Long, Lin Pao and Jiang Pao?
The 10 level reduction is calculated by Wanderer slot, so in this case only one of The Three Dragons is reduced by 10 levels.

Well, thats a big change from the wording in the Black Sun mini-rulebook. Though it raises a further question? Do team cards count as 1 wanderer together or would you still need 3 black sun non-undead characters in order to take the Three Dragon wanderers?

[Ape2020]

The Spanish Anima FAQ seems to disagree with you

Does Free Agent reduce the cost of a Team of Wanderers taken, such as Team The Three Dragons, by 10 levels on Li Long, Lin Pao and Jiang Pao?
The 10 level reduction is calculated by Wanderer slot, so in this case only one of The Three Dragons is reduced by 10 levels.

Well, thats a big change from the wording in the Black Sun mini-rulebook. Though it raises a further question? Do team cards count as 1 wanderer together or would you still need 3 black sun non-undead characters in order to take the Three Dragon wanderers?

Hey Hiro I was going to say something to the effect the reason Free Agents confused me was due to that Hell's FAQ ruling. 

To make matters worst Shinobi are eligible for the wanderer discount from Free Agents but correct me if I'm wrong they don't take up any wanderer slots. 

I pose this question how much is this team?

Org Adv: Free Agents

Deimon
Promethia
Styx
Dark Takanosuke
Kagemaru (Leader)
3xShinobi (40 level built)

-ape2020

[Hiro]

Shinobi in organization teams count as that Org's agents (says so on the Shinobi's card). Therefore the Shinobi don't receive the wanderers discount. Note that the wanderer keyword is no where on the shinobi's card, Oracle just list them with the wanderers because theres no better place to put them.

[Ape2020]

Shinobi in organization teams count as that Org's agents (says so on the Shinobi's card). Therefore the Shinobi don't receive the wanderers discount. Note that the wanderer keyword is no where on the shinobi's card, Oracle just list them with the wanderers because theres no better place to put them.

I wish it was that simple.  Again to the Hell's III FAQ

Shinobi: Shinobi can be effected by the level discount of Organizational benefits such as Free Agent

Link

-ape2020

[Hiro]

I assume thats a mistake or AS has more explaining to do.