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May 20, 2013, 08:05:44 PM
The Official Anima ForumsAnima - TacticsNewsTol Rauko and Selene (supposed) symbols
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planeswalker
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« on: January 25, 2012, 10:44:19 AM »

So, perusing Core Exxet I found that the orgs. section now has the sigils for all the current Tactics organizations...

...plus Tol Rauko here

...and Selene here:


Wait, so that's barely visible. Here's an upscaled version of both, with a quick background and liberal use of unsharp mask.


I wonder if we will ever see those symbols on an A:T card?
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Lizbeth
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 11:06:09 AM »

Selene are actually more like wanderers according to their fluff. Making them separate org in skirmish is questionable, especially because they represent nothing but cliche femdom organisation every fantasy setting is doomed to have.
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planeswalker
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2012, 11:19:05 AM »

Nevertheless they ARE listed as an in-game organization in the Saga I rulebook.

Also, don't hate the clichè, hate the poorly placed clichè. Almost everything in Anima is based off some commonplace fantasy idea or other, that's its merit.
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 11:57:07 AM »

I know. And rulebook say that they are mercenaries working for black sun, samael and council of merchants.

This cliche is particulary bad and useless. What are these organisations about? Girl power? Desperate need to attract girls in gaming? Attempt to please real life woman rights organisations? (note: I cannot remember setting with male only organisation, which treats females as second sort humans. And lots of opposites. Reminds me of Assange)
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planeswalker
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 02:29:15 PM »

Hey, I'm all for the equal treatment of sexes. However, I don't know what is so unrealistic  about a somewhat monastic order that only accepts members of one sex. There are plenty of examples in real life. And I think that organizations that discriminate females are most abundant, actually.
If you're questioning the ethics of the organization itself, well, Azur and Black Sun aren't quite the paragons of justice...
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 08:06:30 PM »

Actually Khaine's father is part of a male only group and that is why she is a wanderer and not member of that group.  Even though she obviously is well qualified to be a paladin. 

Anyways Selene isn't really meant to attract female gamers.  No they are like Girls with Gun anime and are more targeted to horn-dog nerdy male fan-boys.  Oh and I count myself a card carrying member of such a deviant little sub-audience.

As for an Org they are merc like but also band together to defend their home or to hunt down any traitors to their secrets or complete a big job for other groups.

-ape2020
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Lizbeth
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 03:52:45 AM »

Hey, I'm all for the equal treatment of sexes. However, I don't know what is so unrealistic  about a somewhat monastic order that only accepts members of one sex.
I don't mind orders that only accepts members of one sex. But orders that accepts members of one sex because they treat other sex as inferior, and hunt them down if they learn their non-confidentional knowledge which is actually freely distributed among "superior" gender — this stuff is just unacceptable for me. I'm against nazi, even if they are gendernazi.
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If you're questioning the ethics of the organization itself, well, Azur and Black Sun aren't quite the paragons of justice...
Azur and Delacroix Black Sun are required as a Bad Guys orgs. I haven't read Gaia I because it's out of stock on Amazon, but judging on Core rulebook, they have at least some degree of justice and have no paranoidal reasonless hatred for other genders.

Actually Khaine's father is part of a male only group and that is why she is a wanderer and not member of that group.  Even though she obviously is well qualified to be a paladin.
But is she hunted through the world because she have paladin skills while having inappropriate gender?
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Anyways Selene isn't really meant to attract female gamers.  No they are like Girls with Gun anime and are more targeted to horn-dog nerdy male fan-boys.  Oh and I count myself a card carrying member of such a deviant little sub-audience.
I repeat, find nothing bad in girls/boys only orgs. I find bad girls/boys orgs which declares that some peoples are superior and other are inferior, and the main criteria is their gender. And to my own taste there is something masochistic in sympathy to such orgs.

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As for an Org they are merc like but also band together to defend their home or to hunt down any traitors to their secrets or complete a big job for other groups.
To defend their home they have to be attacked first, and such scenario is a dull matter of last resort. Hunting down traitors require actual traitors, which are Celia and Feng Yi at the moment, not very perspective (speaking of traitors, fluffwise their most skilled assassin is only for traitor hunt, which means fielding it in 99% games will contradict fluff). Completing job for other factions is better represented by being wanderers, as for me.
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planeswalker
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 05:28:02 AM »

OK, you make some sound points. I agree that for them to participate in the current shadow war, they must undergo some fluff changes. There has to be some reason for them to compete - as a group - against the other orgs, because now there is none.

However, on the topic of discrimination, I've re-read the entry on Selene in the rulebook, and I don't understand their attitude as looking down on men. By their history, their goal is protecting girls by a means of group strength (they recruit orphan children). Having their tools and weapons revealed would be fatal to them. As a result, some of them (not all) despise men, but that's neither a majoritary or official position (I think this is important), and some of them marry men without further problems.
Also, non-selenian women who learn of their secrets are hunted as well. They're just not perceived as large a threat as a man, precisely because of the Selene's nature of women fellowship.
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 09:20:30 AM »

That was the take I got, as well.  Selene hunts anyone who learns their special martial techniques as a threat, but they do see men as a greater threat because of their position in the world.
 
Not gender-Nazis, but a group who are very protective of their superior martial art techniques.  There are plenty of stories about Shaolin going after people who left the order and started teaching non-Shaolin Shaolin martial arts, and I don't see this as much different.  Selene has a combat edge with their martial art, and don't want it mainstreamed to eliminate that edge.
 
They've acknowledged Selene as accepting lesbianism, perhaps to cater to both gays and the fan boys who drool over that, but also acknowledge it is not the standard, nor something anyone is held to.  They also note them as trained in the arts of seduction, so they start looking more like Registered Companions from Firefly, but without allowing people to know they are Companions.  As noted, many are noted as leaving the order and leading productive lives with traditional relationships, with a solid background relationship remaining to Selene for mutual support.
 
Selene is a Gaian equivalent of martial arts wielding amazons.  They don't specify them as hating men, but only not trusting men because of past treatment.  With Gaia being based on our traditions, with mirrors of many of our societies, that can be well understood.
 
Feminists to a degree, because they don't have a lot of trust in men, or male dominated society.  However, they don't push a feminist agenda, they simply work to ensure their survival, freedom, and prosperity in a male dominated world.
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The Dread Polack
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 10:37:29 AM »

I agree, I'm getting a bit tired of the cliched man-hating secret society of women warriors, but it doesn't look like that's necessarily what they're going for here.

If they think the bad cliche is attracting female gamers, that's pretty sad. More likely, it's as Ape2020 says.

Like most RPG settings, Gaia is a bit less male-dominated than real-life. I think there are two reasons for this. One is to welcome female gamers, the other is that we play these games, in a large part, to escape dealing with all the crap of our real lives, and most of us, I don't think, want to deal with sexism at the gaming table. So, why don't we all just be equal? Even male gamers playing female characters would hate to be told that they couldn't choose from all of the classes, couldn't have any gold, or own their weapons, or that they'd have to roleplay convincing an NPC to train them.

But, maybe someone should start a new topic if we want to really dig into this subject?
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planeswalker
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 01:26:10 PM »

Eh, I don't really think there is a need to, since this topic has little substance to begin with.
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2012, 01:08:35 PM »

OK, you make some sound points. I agree that for them to participate in the current shadow war, they must undergo some fluff changes. There has to be some reason for them to compete - as a group - against the other orgs, because now there is none.
Well, it's actually said in the rulebook that they need to survive so they need as much power as they can obtain.. But that's ridiculous nonsense, as for me. Being power mad group that constantly clashes other orgs for more power is a quite a quick way to obtain enemies and become destroyed. As for me it's obvious that it's simplier to survive when no one wants your head, rather than you have stash of weapons and angried all the world super-powers.
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However, on the topic of discrimination, I've re-read the entry on Selene in the rulebook, and I don't understand their attitude as looking down on men. By their history, their goal is protecting girls by a means of group strength (they recruit orphan children). Having their tools and weapons revealed would be fatal to them. As a result, some of them (not all) despise men, but that's neither a majoritary or official position (I think this is important), and some of them marry men without further problems.
I also re-read their entry in the rulebook, and it states that they usually many of them despise men, and while I don't now what is "many" I assume it's significant number.
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Also, non-selenian women who learn of their secrets are hunted as well. They're just not perceived as large a threat as a man, precisely because of the Selene's nature of women fellowship.
Sorry, my mistake. I had to read more carefully.

Feminists to a degree, because they don't have a lot of trust in men, or male dominated society.  However, they don't push a feminist agenda, they simply work to ensure their survival, freedom, and prosperity in a male dominated world.
First of all, as I already stated, as for now no one want to take their lives and prosperity from them, but being power mad can change this things. But I assume that their leader have some kind of post-war syndrome.
Second, I don't see Gaia as male-dominated world. Hell, it even had woman as a Pope. Celene are the only raging sexists I see in the whole world of Gaia.

I agree, I'm getting a bit tired of the cliched man-hating secret society of women warriors, but it doesn't look like that's necessarily what they're going for here.

If they think the bad cliche is attracting female gamers, that's pretty sad. More likely, it's as Ape2020 says.
About female gamers. To be honest, they are more like doing the contrary thing. Well, I'm a bit out of words, but I'll try to make my thoughts clear. If you're a girl, then your appearance is a matter of bigger concern for you, than if you were a boy. Almost no one born perfect, and those who are exceptional are rare, being a good looking is a hard. And if you are really  good looking, then you'll have no female friends. It's delicate matter.
Well, to finish my rather clumsy thought I just want to state that I saw enough girls irritated because their boyfriend plays games where are lots of underweight big-breasted female chars in revealing clothes. And I saw hundreds of girls with pure hatred for the girls more slim than them. So making org which take in its ranks only beauties will attract around zero real life girls.

Sorry to all for this wall of offtopic.
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we play these games, in a large part, to escape dealing with all the crap of our real lives, and most of us, I don't think, want to deal with sexism at the gaming table. So, why don't we all just be equal? Even male gamers playing female characters would hate to be told that they couldn't choose from all of the classes, couldn't have any gold, or own their weapons, or that they'd have to roleplay convincing an NPC to train them.
I couldn't say better.
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Ape2020
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2012, 08:18:04 PM »


First of all, as I already stated, as for now no one want to take their lives and prosperity from them, but being power mad can change this things. But I assume that their leader have some kind of post-war syndrome.
Second, I don't see Gaia as male-dominated world. Hell, it even had woman as a Pope. Celene are the only raging sexists I see in the whole world of Gaia.

Oh so I take it you don't consider the nation of Dafne to be uber feminist where only women have power and can join the army and men "play a secondary role in this society.  Though not considered slaves, their voice is practically unheard." -Anima: Beyond Fantasy RPG.  To which Cennette was a princess to this nation and had to run away to be with her big strong man Drake.

As for them seeking power, lets see Mattew Gaul is seeking power, Black Sun Delacroix is seeking power, I suspect for his own unfathomable reasons Lucanor is seeming power.  Damn there is far less groups and people not seeking power then those that are in Anima.  At least Selene is providing a service in exchange for that power and not trying to take over. 

Really they are just an order that sees sisterhood as a more positive path.  Like an order of nuns or an all girls school.  The Order of Miguel is males only and won't even let in Khaine a daughter of one of it most prominent members and a girl that wants to fight for good and help any one she can. 

-ape2020
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2012, 01:53:11 AM »

Oh so I take it you don't consider the nation of Dafne to be uber feminist where only women have power and can join the army and men "play a secondary role in this society.  Though not considered slaves, their voice is practically unheard." -Anima: Beyond Fantasy RPG.  To which Cennette was a princess to this nation and had to run away to be with her big strong man Drake.
Somehow they just fallen from my head. Let's consider them Khusishtan opposite, which treats women as second class citizens.

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As for them seeking power, lets see Mattew Gaul is seeking power, Black Sun Delacroix is seeking power, I suspect for his own unfathomable reasons Lucanor is seeming power.  Damn there is far less groups and people not seeking power then those that are in Anima.  At least Selene is providing a service in exchange for that power and not trying to take over.
Matthew Gaul stands for "reason and justice", well he needs this power for his new world order. Lucanor have his own goals (however looks more like he is manipulated by someone who sent him that dream). Back Sun needs power because they are power mad and they are themselves to blame if someone would kick them. Celene is.. well.. same as the black sun but with added hypocrisy.

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Really they are just an order that sees sisterhood as a more positive path.  Like an order of nuns or an all girls school.  The Order of Miguel is males only and won't even let in Khaine a daughter of one of it most prominent members and a girl that wants to fight for good and help any one she can.
As I already said, order that sees sisterhood/brotherhood/etc as more positive path is fine for me. Order that sees one sex as superior and despise other — that's not the thing I want to see at the gaming table.
Even for the game reasons — selene party (and I remind that selene is one of the major orgs presented) will have to consist of one gender, and not all player are perfectly comfortable with cross-gender roles.
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Lizbeth
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 08:26:56 AM »

One more note.
AT first edition saga mentioned 8 orgs: church, samael, wissenschaft, black sun, empire, azur and wanderers.
Since Anima Beyond Fantasy was released before AT there might still be hope for me that there will be no selene in at. Grin
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