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May 23, 2013, 05:17:01 AM
The Official Anima ForumsAnima - TacticsNewsTol Rauko and Selene (supposed) symbols
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planeswalker
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2012, 01:42:38 PM »

Lizbeth, do yourself a favor and count again Tongue
Also, wanderers aren't really an organization (much the contrary, in fact)

PS: Read your mail, no time for elaborate answer, hope I can drop a line tomorrow.
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2012, 02:18:24 PM »

Quote from: Lizbeth
Even for the game reasons — selene party (and I remind that selene is one of the major orgs presented) will have to consist of one gender, and not all player are perfectly comfortable with cross-gender roles.

Are you serious?  You know you should put sarcasm tags around a comment like that.  But just in case I would highly recommend the same thing you do with Orient based units DON'T PLAY THEM.

I also really doubt it would hurt this game at all seeing how Morheim a game that was much more popular then A:T had a main faction that was all female and fairly popular the Sisters of Sigmar.

Quote from: Lizbeth
One more note.
AT first edition saga mentioned 8 orgs: church, samael, wissenschaft, black sun, empire, azur and wanderers.
Since Anima Beyond Fantasy was released before AT there might still be hope for me that there will be no selene in at. Grin

And Gaia was released after AT so that means nothing.  Plus we already have on record Anima Studio thinking of doing Selene after Tol Rauko.  They are a fan favorite group despite your own prejudices and are likely to be a group in the far future.

Personally I couldn't care either way but tend to want either the Magus Order or the Order of Yuhedah, as they seem more involved as a group in world matters.

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« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 04:43:26 PM by planeswalker » Logged



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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2012, 04:45:50 PM »

ape2020, please keep your cool. Don't be derisive and don't tell people what to do, okay? Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2012, 05:08:19 PM »

ape2020, please keep your cool. Don't be derisive and don't tell people what to do, okay? Smiley

That kinda of funny in that I toned it down from before and only made it a high recommendation for those that can't bridge the psychological barrier of playing units of the opposite sex.  Still this thread has pretty much run its value of interest with me so it on to bigger and better things... like my next snack!  Grin  Grin  Grin

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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2012, 05:51:40 PM »

ape2020, please keep your cool. Don't be derisive and don't tell people what to do, okay? Smiley

I find the hypocrisy of this post damn near earth shattering
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« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2012, 12:02:15 AM »

ape2020, please keep your cool. Don't be derisive and don't tell people what to do, okay? Smiley
I find the hypocrisy of this post damn near earth shattering

Not at all. I'm a moderator and I can tell people what to do here, if it's to keep the atmosphere peaceful and respectful.
I also try to be friendly in doing so. It's not meant to be sarcastic in any way, if that's what you're seeing there.
If we're clear on this, I'd rather have this thread return to its topic, please.
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« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2012, 02:44:25 AM »

Yeah chill out Lizbeth.

I was the same mid as you but after few days of thinking I realized that this man-hating fluff device will probably not be a dominant feature of the faction. Hell, maybe Ciphere will even make a unit mocking this feature as they did in other factions. Hmm, for Selene it would probably be some kind of crazy older looking woman with a big Venus sign the size of Justina's crossow with background simillar to the most hardcore of inquisitors. One can do nothing more but laugh, like when you secretly play the power rangers theme when Hiro or Theurgia comes into play.

One more thing to note, if gender equality is such a hot topic in Anima why anyone didn't say a word when Erika got her sixth heaven uniform. I re-read the entry on the heaven order and young men and women dream to become a knight and train vigorously to ascend to higher echelons of the order. Imagine the faces of those poor bastards in the baracs or on patrol duty when they heard that the Empress ordered one of her playmates, a teenage girl who is barely old enough to get married, ascended to such a high ranked position and became your field commander. Duncan would probably say something like this:  -Hey guys who wants to join Mathew Gaul?

I wonder how will her story page look like in the next rulebook.

As for Khaine and the all male order of Paladins this is a weak argument because there can be several valid reasons why Khaine despite her valiant efforts should not join. One of them is that some members can gain authority through seducion or marriage. The name Order of Paladins implies that the members of the order are better  educated and aspire to greater values than your typical orders but this can easily can go to hell if they'll be faced with problem like: turning over your wife/lover because she broke the rules of the order or corrupted the values the order stands on. Khain as selfless as she is might make a point for other females to join the order. I wonder if her father would have the guts despite being "the most prominent member" to send her so beloved daughter to certain death because of his duty. Forbiding one gender to join the organisation due to emotional issues that might occure is difficult but the correct course of action , especially in the shadow of such  events as the breach of heavens.

But lets return to the topic. I read about Tol Rauko and I don't know what to think about them. How should dark character look like from this faction which looks more like Nathaniel and Empire having an offspring.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 03:12:18 AM by Grandmikus » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2012, 04:13:00 AM »

Lizbeth, do yourself a favor and count again Tongue
Cry I'm not that bad at counting to mistake 8 and 9. "Besides these alignments, each character can belong to an
affiliation. The eight affiliations that exist are:" page 6 Saga I Starter rulebook.
That kinda of funny in that I toned it down from before and only made it a high recommendation for those that can't bridge the psychological barrier of playing units of the opposite sex.
I have no problems with playing chars of any sex because I'm gm and making world where all npc are of one gender is bad idea. But as for players, some of them are uncomfortable with playing opposite gender, and hey, we are playing game for fun, not participating in psycho mumbo jumbo session "overcome your internal barriers". Some of the players are not reluctant to play opposite gender, but they are terrible at it and ruin all sense of belief. But's matter of another topic.

I'd like to make conclusion and then make myself silent on this particular topic because heat of discussion is slightly alarming.
Selene is the org with all it's member following the criteria:
1. They are all female. No problem with it.
2. They are all orphans.
3. They are all recruited under 8-age.
4. They are all beautiful.
5. Many of them despise opposite gender.
6. All the rest treat opposite gender as unwanted strangers at best.
7. They are first-class assassins.

And as for me it makes no sense. To recruit a new member they first find an orphaned girl. First question: will this girl be beautiful in the future (I don't know how they determine it, but whatever). The second question is, is she talented enough to be super assassin (I'd like to remind, that most chars in the game are more than lvl 40, which is level of legendary Harod). If both questions are yes, then welcome, if any of them are no, then "GTFO no one cares about this orphaned girl".
I have no words to express my excitement about their high moral.

Even if we assume that Gaia is fantasy world where beautiful women are at abundance, still there should be a lots of orphaned girls so that selene may keep its numbers with their over the top requirements to its candidates. For example Church have around 1k inquisitors, but they do not require their members to be of exceptional appearance or specified gender, and the Church operates legally on the large part of the world, so they have bigger choice of candidates as well.
Which means even existence of this org is one big "WTF but how?" mark.

What do we have else except for this and the stuff I mentioned in my earlier posts like lack of sympathy for men? Ah, they are highly experienced in sex arts and able to pleasure both men and women. But they have no men on their island, great occasion to imagine lesbians with a strap-ons. Beautiful lesbians, if we try to forget that term "beautiful" is relative, because tastes differs.
Madwoman ruled organisation of hypocrites, which strives to survive ignoring the fact that their first and biggest obstacle for their survival is their own recruiting policy? No thanks, as for me good-looking lesbians is not enough of excuse for such orgs in any game.

Thanks for reading my wall of text, I have nothing to add and go silent on this particular topic from now on.

Hmm, for Selene it would probably be some kind of crazy older looking woman with a big Venus sign the size of Justina's crossow with background simillar to the most hardcore of inquisitors.
Actually I perceived Alaxa exactly in this way Smiley

Sorry, I don't know the whole Erika story, her short reference in shop states almost nothing. May be when I get my hands on Gaia 1...

Quote
But lets return to the topic. I read about Tol Rauko and I don't know what to think about them. How should dark character look like from this faction which looks more like Nathaniel and Empire having an offspring.
Empire have few dark characters. Samiel, Vayl, Valentine. So there is no problem or some Dark chars among Tol Rauko, especially the ones who treat non-humans badly.
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« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2012, 04:26:50 AM »

But isn't the whole purpose of Tol Rauko to treat non-humans better?

Also I would not considere  Tabletop stats as a power-meter fluff wise. I considere Harod as an assasin with limited options but with experiance of some tournament players like Hiro or Zeru and selene are probably "I am awesome and I can do it because no one knows what I know", like Cheshire, we don't know why he has a wooping 9/9 but he has and he is awesome statwise meaning "Sumon = Tactics not needed".

As an organisation the whole inquisitorial training program is more of a death trap rather than a course so in order for Selene to succed in training  good assasins they probably had to develop some really amazing techniques or some kind abiity tha allows them to drop the mortality rates to a small percentage.

Their recruits might not be entierly orphans. I think there is a possibility that some assasins just kidnap or kill families of prominent new recruits with gives a lot of cool background for dark Selene characters. You kill someone , take his children and bam we got a new recruit, they can even deal with slavery or look for slave merchants to take their cattle and you have yourself a few dozens of  young girls to train. If they need they might assault church establishments like inquisitorial training halls or the local orphanage. There are a lot of possibilities to  find new recruits.

Appearence is also something that can be easily acquired. Magic potions , make up skills and daily training from young age can shape them into a particullar person the sisterhood needs. This also makes me wonder, what if someone gets half of her face melted by a magican? Is she going to retire then?

« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 04:57:13 AM by Grandmikus » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2012, 04:34:28 AM »

Their purpose is to keep knowledges about them. If my memory still haven't failed me, I remember them extracting all information from non-humans and then keeping them drugged in stasis.
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« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2012, 05:00:05 AM »

It would be funny to see a character named "the collector" a mad tol rauko leader who likes to collect non humans in statis Cheesy I can see him getting along well with Brunner. Both like keeping pets.
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« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2012, 09:45:32 AM »

But isn't the whole purpose of Tol Rauko to treat non-humans better?

No, the purpose of Tol Rauko is to preserve the supernatural creatures and artifacts they find. If that means locking them in a prison, so be it (and they do have a prison they lock those they capture in).
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« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2012, 11:58:57 AM »

Feminists to a degree, because they don't have a lot of trust in men, or male dominated society.  However, they don't push a feminist agenda, they simply work to ensure their survival, freedom, and prosperity in a male dominated world.
First of all, as I already stated, as for now no one want to take their lives and prosperity from them, but being power mad can change this things. But I assume that their leader have some kind of post-war syndrome.
Second, I don't see Gaia as male-dominated world. Hell, it even had woman as a Pope. Celene are the only raging sexists I see in the whole world of Gaia.
There was a female Pope, installed by a mad emperor, and it caused significant discord, even though the emperor was within his purvue to name her.
 
There is a female empress, but that has caused discord, as well.
 
Gaia is not constructed as a female hating world, but there is a definite bias toward rule by males.  It doesn't match our world, which is not strange for an RPG, but it does at least partially mirror our world, and part of that mirroring is the prevalence of male control in governments.  Not complete male control, but significantly higher than the level of female control.
 
I don't see Selene as power mad.  Perhaps misguided and paranoid because of past events directly remembered by their leader, but not power mad. 
 
They are quite content staying in the shadows, and using subterfuge and assassination to influence the world instead of direct control.
 
While it is stated many hate men, and others consider them second class citizens, that isn't strange for a society that raises its members in an atmosphere of prejudice.
 
'Many' is a very subjective term, as it can easily mean many more than usual within a population.  Pulling numbers out of the air as reference, if normally three women in 100 hate men, and Selene's population raises that to six, that's doubling the normal ratio, and would qualify for the use of 'many.'  Six in 100 would still not be that large a percentage, but would be many more than usual.  The same can be said of the level of homosexuality within Selene's members.  Obviously, if they are trained to seduce both men and women, there have to be memebers that do not find that repugnant.
 
The Spartans were a male dominated warrior culture, that encouraged both marriage and homosexual relations for the men.  Women were second class citizens, but were still treated as full members of the society, and given honors when they were due.
 
Selene can keep their island monastary for the raising of their girls, and keep villages that include men on nearby islands to help support their society.  Having a normal front nearby, with just the island monastary sequestered with just females, would be a far better front, and allow the training to go forward with mundane chores for survival handled by men and women who might not have attaiined the level of capability Selense seeks in its operatives. 
 
What happens to trainees who turn out to not be beautiful, or are disfigured in training?  Nothing says they are killed, so it would be logical to have them take over maintainence chores needed for Selene's society to function.  Growing crops, fishing, running businesses, and everything else needed for a society to function means laborers for those tasks have to be found.  Add some men to build a viable front to conceal the manstic retreat, and you have men for the trainees to practice with, and an economy that can support the order.
 
How deeply Selene distrusts males is open for question, as are most other concepts for their society.  People can fill in those gaps in knowledge with pronouncements of how things couldn't work that way, or take the time to consider how they might with a slightly different interpretation of what little information we actually have.
 
I find it much more interesting to think of how alternate cultural groups can function than to try and find questionable holes showing how they couldn't.  Gaia has the Selene order, and we have very little concrete information on how it functions.  Thinking about ways to make it work within the narrow template we've been given won't work, because they wopuld need to be much more than what we've been told to function, as would most other organizations.
 
Instead of simply decreeing Selene couldn't work, think of what else it needs to make it work.  There is plenty of room in Gaia for it to do so.
 
As a quick example, here's a basic idea I picture when I consider Selene:
 
I picture a monastary in a island caldera, simply because of the visuals of a monastary with a beautiful lake in front of it.  Outside the caldera, there are a few villages on the island that grow crops and fish to get the food the monastary needs, while helping to conceal it from prying eyes. 
 
Established sisters live in those villages, and have hidden tunnels to reach the monastary as needed, as well as other ways to communicate with the monastary.  Those sisters include some who have retired back to the island, some resting between assignments, and some stationed as guards.  Also working as guards are women who failed at some level of their training as full sisters within Selene, because Selene does not want to abandon their people as they were abandoned by circumstance ages past. 
 
No normal people from the villages are allowed into the caldera, but they have a reasonable society on the outside edges of the island, as well as on a few other nearby islands.  Woman are the major power in government, but men are treated as functional citizens with the ability to address their rulers when needed.
 
Men from the villages are sometimes invited to parties held at villas near the edge of the caldera to allow the training sisters a chance to learn the arts of seduction.  Men and women are treated to a higher level of education than in many areas, both because it helps them support the monastary and to give the sisters greater challenges when they have to learn their arts of seduction.
 
Sisters are raised in an atmosphere that is prejudiced against men, but they are allowed to form their own views as they grow to the point they can interact with men.  Because of the kind of work Selene does, close relationships between sisters are encouraged, because that builds a stronger bond within the organization.  Homosexual relations are neither encouraged nor discouraged, but do form a natural progression in some relationships due to the intense bonding the sisters attain.
 
Those ideas allow a functional society living in hiding, with sisters capable of hating men, or not, but with a higher incidence due to raised prejudices.  They would have men available for training in the arts of seduction, with those men quite possibly happy to help.  Those men might be second class citizens, but they are also valued members of the community, and could live there happily.
 
People within those villages could live there without express knowledge of what is there in the caldera.  Simply knowing their rulers live within a protected and restricted area would be no stranger than many other ruling classes.
 
I don't say my idea is what was pictured when Selene was originally envisioned, but it is certainly a workable concept that allows such an organization to thrive and flourish.
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« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2012, 01:22:56 PM »

The most reasonable anwser this topic had so far. Thank you for your hard work Gimp!
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« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2012, 02:23:22 PM »

Appearence is also something that can be easily acquired. Magic potions , make up skills and daily training from young age can shape them into a particullar person the sisterhood needs.
Daily training won't help, chirurgeon may be? A point of note, they are stated to take beautiful girls, not make ones.
Quote
This also makes me wonder, what if someone gets half of her face melted by a magican? Is she going to retire then?
Game developers have different standards for women – they are less likeky to loose an eye or limb or have their teeth kicked out. That's why Angelus is bearded elf, but Axala have no wrinkles, it would make her not hawt.
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