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[Gimp]

Even Tolkien saying elves didn't grow beards until their third stage of life was not an automatic concept that they couldn't.  It could easily be cultural that they shaved until they reached a certain age.
 
I thought it was funny when DnD decided to make elves beardless as an official rules concept, which we proceeded to always ignore anyway.
 
Young looking, trim, thin, and with long flowing blond hair have become fairly common ideas for elves, but that's simply because that's what socety's stereptypes suggest as the epitome of good looks.
 
Only people who don't want variety have to stick with that for their gaming.
 
A buff, rougish elf pirate with curly red hair and a beard, or a black haired Rubenesque elven beauty with more curves than a grand prix race track, are just as playable and believable for anyone who wants to play them.  I've always pictured elves as being quite as capable of physical variety as humans. 
 
With a long life and good intelligence, they're more likely to realize taking good care of their bodies matters with their expected lifespan, but that doesn't mean they have to be thin, only healthy.

[Lizbeth]

Young looking, trim, thin, and with long flowing blond hair have become fairly common ideas for elves, but that's simply because that's what socety's stereptypes suggest as the epitome of good looks.

Blonde hair are not mandatory in any way. Starting from DnD iconic wizard Mialee.

A buff, rougish elf pirate with curly red hair and a beard,

And what's the point for this char of being elf? To get his Dex bonus?

a black haired Rubenesque elven beauty

I don't know about your own or your players personal tastes, but my players will react like "WTF U R calling this fat a beauty??!!". No popular journals like Vogue or Playboy consider this beautiful, its more like BBW.

Only people who don't want variety have to stick with that for their gaming.

I think that if you allow elves to be like humans you'll kill the variety first of all things. Because it will be choice between "humans" and "humans with pointy ears and different statline".

Only people who don't want variety have to stick with that for their gaming.

I've always pictured elves as being quite as capable of physical variety as humans.

As for me you completely miss the point of elves (or any other races). Each of these limitations imposed on these races in their height, weight, cultural and moral restricts and other such stuff is actually a shtick, the same way as their pointy ears. This shticks allows to create unique impossible fantasy race. Every time you drastically (one usually don't count) remove this shticks, you move this race toward humans with fake ears item from Munchkin TCG. What's the point of creating an elf character who looks like human and acts like human, with a little difference of pointy ears which are no way more important than their other body measures?

[alphawhelp]

Only people who don't want variety have to stick with that for their gaming.
 
A buff, rougish elf pirate with curly red hair and a beard, or a black haired Rubenesque elven beauty with more curves than a grand prix race track, are just as playable and believable for anyone who wants to play them.  I've always pictured elves as being quite as capable of physical variety as humans.

In the context of D&D or other Tolkien inspired fantasy, this is all kind of silly.

In Anima, elvish culture has been completely and utterly destroyed and any Sylvain born in the past 300 years has grown up spending the majority of their time pretending to be a human, so do whatever you want.

[nifoc]

I think that if you allow elves to be like humans you'll kill the variety first of all things. Because it will be choice between "humans" and "humans with pointy ears and different statline".

Unlike how they are usually portrayed in most books and roleplaying games then?

As for me you completely miss the point of elves (or any other races). Each of these limitations imposed on these races in their height, weight, cultural and moral restricts and other such stuff is actually a shtick, the same way as their pointy ears. This shticks allows to create unique impossible fantasy race.

Actually you are not creating a believable fantasy race, you are creating a racist stereotype of a fantasy race.
"We all know Elves are a polite and knowledgable race"
or
"We all know Jews are good with money"

What's the difference? Does that make for a good fantasy race (race is used in the, incorrect, way it is used in fantasy) or does it make for a stupidly restrictive stereotype that is, in essence, just a statline with mandatory personality traits attached?

[alphawhelp]

Actually you are not creating a believable fantasy race, you are creating a racist stereotype of a fantasy race.
"We all know Elves are a polite and knowledgable race"
or
"We all know Jews are good with money"

What's the difference? Does that make for a good fantasy race (race is used in the, incorrect, way it is used in fantasy) or does it make for a stupidly restrictive stereotype that is, in essence, just a statline with mandatory personality traits attached?

Humans were stereotypical in Tolkien's world, too.  That's one place where D&D differs from them.  Humans were unilaterally terrible with magic (Gandalf wasn't entirely human, and he had one of the rings, to boot), they were all completely weak willed (they turned into ringwraiths in a matter of days), and other kinds of stereotypes.

on the reverse side of things, lets pull out something Sci-Fi here and say Star Trek, there were more stereotypes to be encountered, there were no Klingon marriage counselors or anything like that.  You'll also notice how monocultural the humans aboard the enterprise were.  Nobody was religious, at all.  Nobody celebrated any holidays, etc.

When you have a setting which includes multiple alien races (elves etc are still alien), you need to do something to make them feel alien, and the best way of doing that is to give them an alien way of thinking.  You say 'elves are not humans with pointy ears because humans do x and elves do y'.

But in Anima, that distinction isn't made, elves had better damn well do x, because if they do y, they will get killed by the inquisition.

And also, stereotypes make a lot more sense when you categorize people according to culture and not race.  Also in D&D, there are in fact, cultural differences within a race, you can play a nomadic elf, a sedentary elf, or a solitary elf, just to name a few examples and the three of them will look at each other in a different light, one thinking the other is primitive or what else have you.  There will be some shared qualities among elves, just as there are some qualities shared among all of humankind (minus some of the mentally ill / brainwashed ones)

[nifoc]

You know you are just making excuses for poor writing right? Not Tolkien in this case, who actually did have more variety than fantasy-settings are known for.

One of the better handled examples of non-stereotypical handling of other races IMO is actually a D&D-setting. When Eberron was published the books talked about national or regional cultures rather than racial ones. Granted, there were regions and nations that were primarily populated by one race, but an elf that had grown up in Sharn (one of the major cities) was a quite different person from one who had grown up on Aerenal (elven dominated island).

Making an alien race (including fantasy ones) shouldn't entail making them narrower in scope, but rather actually making them different. By creating a race and forcing everyone in that race to share the same set of limited characteristics, you aren't creating a rich culture, you are creating a series of mannequinns.

I freely admit that I really dislike non-human races in most games for precisely that reason. Rather than being unique and different, they are "beatiful, long-lived, always good humans" or "short blacksmiths with beards who like gold and beer".

[Lizbeth]

But in Anima, that distinction isn't made, elves had better damn well do x, because if they do y, they will get killed by the inquisition.

I have to disagree with this particular statement. Because it all depends on y, and not every y is punished by inquisition. For example I as a GM might say "Sylvain have elemental imbalance to light, so they are not going to worship demons" and inquisition won't punish them because of "omg this dude refused to worship demons HERESY GOD EMPEROR PURGE THE WICKED ARGHHHH". The same way they might be more noble, more inclined to live in harmony with nature, and may not be a pirate. Inquisition just can't punish everyone who is suspiciously noble, suspiciously ranger or not a pirate.

Unlike how they are usually portrayed in most books and roleplaying games then?

Are we talking about good ones or bad ones?

Actually you are not creating a believable fantasy race, you are creating a racist stereotype of a fantasy race.
"We all know Elves are a polite and knowledgable race"
or
"We all know Jews are good with money"

Fantasy race is not for being believable. It's about being interesting. Elves who are like humans but with pointy ears are almost pointless because they can be easily replaced with humans.
And I'm sorry to admit it, but you have to be slightly racist to play RPG because rules say that one race is smarter, other is stronger, many live longer than human and they all are not equal. Or you can make politically correct version where everyone have the same statline and ears shape, skin colour and such are irrelevant.

What's the difference? Does that make for a good fantasy race (race is used in the, incorrect, way it is used in fantasy) or does it make for a stupidly restrictive stereotype that is, in essence, just a statline with mandatory personality traits attached?

This "mandatory" personality traits are actually called "roleplaying". And if you don't like such traits you can go human, and act whatever you like because humans fills this niche in RPGs. Or you want elven statline actually?

Making an alien race (including fantasy ones) shouldn't entail making them narrower in scope, but rather actually making them different.

And how we supposed to make them different if you say that they should look like humans and act like humans?

[nifoc]

Unlike how they are usually portrayed in most books and roleplaying games then?

Are we talking about good ones or bad ones?

The ones where elves are reduced to having a stereotypical subset of human characteristics.

Actually you are not creating a believable fantasy race, you are creating a racist stereotype of a fantasy race.
"We all know Elves are a polite and knowledgable race"
or
"We all know Jews are good with money"

Fantasy race is not for being believable. It's about being interesting. Elves who are like humans but with pointy ears are almost pointless because they can be easily replaced with humans.

Since you are advocating elves that are prettier, nicer humans it seems that you are arguing for that.

And I'm sorry to admit it, but you have to be slightly racist to play RPG because rules say that one race is smarter, other is stronger, many live longer than human and they all are not equal. Or you can make politically correct version where everyone have the same statline and ears shape, skin colour and such are irrelevant.

Is it racist to say that african-americans make up a disproportionate number of the top athletes in american football and basketball? No, that's simply genetics.

What's the difference? Does that make for a good fantasy race (race is used in the, incorrect, way it is used in fantasy) or does it make for a stupidly restrictive stereotype that is, in essence, just a statline with mandatory personality traits attached?

This "mandatory" personality traits are actually called "roleplaying". And if you don't like such traits you can go human, and act whatever you like because humans fills this niche in RPGs. Or you want elven statline actually?

So choosing a fantasy race means that I have to play a certain personality according to you? And I can play the same person, but as a human, but I can't play an alcoholic elf?

Making an alien race (including fantasy ones) shouldn't entail making them narrower in scope, but rather actually making them different.

And how we supposed to make them different if you say that they should look like humans and act like humans?

Who says they should look and act like humans? Your point seems to be that the only difference between elves and humans are that they live longer, don't have beards and are nicer. Is that really an interesting race and not just an excuse for a different statline?

[Gimp]

Any fantasy race should be defined by culture far more than by physical racial stereotyping.
 
A fat elf is not a fat human with pointy ears, because they would have far different reasons for allowing themselves to become fat, as their long life span would give them a very different perspective on why they should take good care of their bodies, or what would drive them to their personal excesses.
 
The buff and bearded elvish pirate should not be a pointy eared human pirate, because his reasons for turning to piracy, where he could well wind up hunted for centuries, would be far different than a human's.  His drives and desires would come from very different core beliefs, but there is no reason he has to be limited to being a stick figure instead of a fully fleshed out character.  For that matter, every human pirate should be far more than a charicature, with a variety of mores and reasons for turning to piracy.
 
The Rubenesque elvish woman would not be beautiful to some people, but would be wonderful to others, and elves, as well as humans, should be allowed to have a variety of tastes for physical beauty.
 
Any time a fantasy race is limited to stereotypes, the fantasy world they come from becomes a less believable place.  Why they are different in attitudes is likely to come from very different paradigms, but there is no reason to place fantasy races in a very narrow set of confines simply to make them easier to play.
 
Books tend to deal with a very limited cross section of any races they portray, so limiting a race to the limited variety shown makes no more sense than deciding all humans in a fantasy world act and sound like they come from New York (or London, or wherever) simply because that is the only cultural group one player in a group has encountered.

[The Dread Polack]

Of course we're all being racist when we roleplay non-humans. They're fictional, and they don't have the ability to complain about it. So, if the author (or GM) decides that, unlike real-world human "races", that there are very real physical and mental differences between humans and elves, then there are. End of discussion.

I think there is some fairly pointless debate going on here. I suggest that you make it clear whether you're talking about what Tolkien intended, what the Anima authors intended, or what you intend in your game. Otherwise, what are we arguing about?

In my game, I haven't decided for sure, but I think full-fledged Sylvain will be mostly if not completely beardless, because that's how I imagine them (yes, I'm being racist- go find a real sylvain to sue me). The nephilim are different- I think they will tend toward no-beards, but are more easily able to grow them, depending on their human lineage.

Humans were stereotypical in Tolkien's world, too.  That's one place where D&D differs from them.  Humans were unilaterally terrible with magic (Gandalf wasn't entirely human, and he had one of the rings, to boot), they were all completely weak willed (they turned into ringwraiths in a matter of days), and other kinds of stereotypes.

To nitpick a bit: Tolkien changed his mind from time to time, so we can't always be certain what he intended. Most of the humans we read about in Tolkien are Númenoreans, and idealized, noble, and more principled than "normal" humans. I wouldn't call any of the main humans (Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Eowyn, Eomer, Theoden, etc.) "Weak-willed" The power of the right was supposed to be so strong that even Boromir, who briefly "failed his saving throw" against it lasted longer than any of us would. There were only a couple of humans that were ever known to use magic in M-E, and they were all evil. Gandalf isn't any part human at all. He's more like an extraplanar being in human form, as are the other wizards, Sauron, and the balrog. The Ringwraiths were Kings of the Numenoreans, and I'm pretty sure it took more than "days" to turn them.

Tolkien’s elves were even more ideal than the Númenoreans. They seemed to be superior in almost every single way to humans, mentally and physically. Sounds like the “no beards ‘till their 3rd life cycle” is as close to official as we’re gonna get. The boys over at TSR decided to make this official. Tolkien’s elves were taller than humans, and I’d bet also stronger, but D&D’s elves are shorter and no stronger. I don’t know if Tolkien ever dreamt up a fat elf before, but given the pattern, I doubt it.

Given that most fantasy elves are slender, and in fact most characters of the anime art-style are pretty darn slender, then I think thin elves make the most sense in anima.

Do they vary as much as humans? I don’t know. Does it say in the books? No. Then it’s up to you. Why are we arguing about it?

Also, as an example, the orcs were evil. All of them. It wasn’t cultural. They didn’t have a bad upbringing. Some people thought they were analogous to Nazis, but Tolkien denied this. Nazis were human, orcs were not. In order to understand fantasy, you have to actually imagine a world unlike our own, where things don’t work the way they do in real life. Saying that elves are smarter than humans or dwarves are more greedy might actually be true in your fantasy world.

on the reverse side of things, lets pull out something Sci-Fi here and say Star Trek, there were more stereotypes to be encountered, there were no Klingon marriage counselors or anything like that.  You'll also notice how monocultural the humans aboard the enterprise were.  Nobody was religious, at all.  Nobody celebrated any holidays, etc.

Star Trek has racial stereotypes for the same reason fantasy does. Luckily, no Vulcans are going to sue us. Gene Roddenberry once said after creating the Ferengi that they were more like actual humans than the humans of ST were. Like the Númenoreans of M-E, the humans of ST are idealized. It was one of Gene Roddenberry's maxims in Star Trek script writing. Humans weren't always perfect, but in the end, they always did the right thing for the right reason. After he died, most of the writers have ignored this. He was also a Secular Humanist, and that's why the only references to religion were primitive superstitions. That's another thing they ignored after he died.

[Ape2020]

Okay the way I see Sylvain & Duk'zarist as presented in Anima, is that both are artificial races created to be perfect examples of humans or human ideas. 

Whose idea, well the writers of the game of course.  They make this painfully obvious when describing just the Nephilim - human with just the freakin souls of these races is enough to make them generally slender and fair or tall.  A pure blood member of these races are even more like that in my mind no matter if they lived among humans. 

I just chalk this up to being genetically and supernaturally engineered to be that way.  They can eat all they want and not go fat, they don't grow beards unit the ripe old age of a billion and so on.

Of course if you play it differently with a more PC slant.  Then knock yourself out as long as everyone is having fun.

-ape2020 

[Lizbeth]

The ones where elves are reduced to having a stereotypical subset of human characteristics.

And when they are not "reduced" this way what the point of such elves if they are totally human in result? Well, may be quirky human.

Since you are advocating elves that are prettier, nicer humans it seems that you are arguing for that.

I advocate that they have different mindset and different physiology. It's their physiology that do not allow them to be overweight (same way orc physiology makes him green). And it's their mindset that makes them act in different way.

Is it racist to say that african-americans make up a disproportionate number of the top athletes in american football and basketball? No, that's simply genetics.

I heard from one school teacher that yes, such statements are considered provocative at least.

So choosing a fantasy race means that I have to play a certain personality according to you? And I can play the same person, but as a human, but I can't play an alcoholic elf?

Something like that. Not certain personality but still the choice is narrower.

Who says they should look and act like humans? Your point seems to be that the only difference between elves and humans are that they live longer, don't have beards and are nicer. Is that really an interesting race and not just an excuse for a different statline?

Even if it's an "excuse" it requires some work at least and it may result in something interesting. And what you offer is like "elves act like humans, just suppose that they have their unique elvish excuses for that".

Any fantasy race should be defined by culture far more than by physical racial stereotyping.

I suppose that they should be defined by both culture and physical features. Because otherwise we'll end with "rubberhead aliens".

The Rubenesque elvish woman would not be beautiful to some people, but would be wonderful to others, and elves, as well as humans, should be allowed to have a variety of tastes for physical beauty.

Why should they? Elves are elves, they are not fat. Or if they should, what about bald wookies? Human-headed klingons? 2 meters tall halflings? Silicoids who look like Jolie?
Actually I don't get the point of making alien races more human.

[Gimp]

Having a phisiology that precludes being overweight would be a rather odd concept.  Animals in the wild don't tend toward being fat simply because they have to work hard for their food, but any living creature with sufficient resources can tend toward getting overweight.  Some animals keep themselves from going very far that way, but that is because of their role as predators tending to keep them from overindulging too often, but they can still get fat compared to animals in the wild.
 
A phisiology that precludes the ability to get fat makes no sense.  Deciding you don't want elven body hair has merit as an aesthetic choice, as their are human racial groups that tend to more or less body hair, but any creature with full concious control of their eating would have the physical capability to get fat.  Only social considerations would stop it.  A high rate metabolism could make it hard to get fat, but it would also mean they would be eating a lot to survive.
 
Elves have been described as largely humanoid, with many games allowing a close enough genetic similarity to allow interbreeding with humans.  If they can do that, and even more if the resulting half-breeds are not sterile, then there is far less difference between elven genetics and human genetics to insist they have to be beardless, always thin, or anything else.  A far longer lifespan as a genetic concept is pushing believability for realistic campaigns, but it does fit traditional fantasy. 
 
If elves can grow beards at advanced age, there should be no genetic barrier to them growing them at a younger age after reaching physical maturity.  Facial hair for humans comes with physical maturity for those genetic models that grow facial hair, so if an elf can grow facial hair, there is no logical reason to suggest they could not grow it at physical maturity. 
 
If you want to consider elves as peach fuzzed teenager equivalents until they reach some lofty age, that would be a rationale for aged elven beards, but one I would expect many players to not want to embrace.
 
The comment on african-american athletes being a genetic consideration needs to be removed from the discussion, as the concept has been proven to be falacious.  It is a cultural consideration, and not a genetic consideration, though the idea has continued as an urban legend far past the point where it was proved to be erroneous.
 
Orcs being green is also not an actual fantasy tradition.  GW creted the concept of green orcs with their Warhammer worlds, but few traditional fantasy settings carry that concept.  Their setting has popularuity because of their market penetration for their wargames, and has carried over to some games sinces they were published, but it was simply their choice that made orcs green. 
 
Just as easily, elves can be chosen to be magically unable to get fat, or beardless until extremely old, or able to walk on top of snow without snowshoes regardless of what they carry, or able to hold drink better than humans, etc...
 
Just as easily, elves can be chosen to have as much genetic diversity as normal humans, but with specific genetic differences that are more easily explained while allowing interbreeding with humans, and being dependent on those less extreme differences tied with cultural differences to differentiate them from humans as characters within a GM's setting.  Elves getting completely drunk was integral to The Hobbit, as their drunken stupor allowed the dwarves to escape.  The Two Towers changed that for humors sake with Legolas outdrinking everyone with virtually no effect.  That's two interpretations of the same fantasy world with equal validity as entetrtainment regarding make believe races.
 
Neither consideration is inherently wrong, as it comes down to what considerations a GM wants to apply to their world.  It only has to appeal to the players' aesthetics, as there are no real analogues to apply.
 
If a group wants beardless, thin, pretty, always well spoken, with whatever other additions they want for their elves, they aren't wrong, as there are no real elves to complain.
 
If another group wants more genetic diversity for their elves, with fewer physical differences from humans, and more cultural differences than their human counterparts, they are equally justified.
 
Why not allow genetic diversity for fantasy races?  Tolkien had extreme height differences for halflings even before Merry and Pippin drank with Treebeard.  Star Trek has varied the amount of ridges for Klingons quite a bit, even since they changed them with TNG.  Wookies might be able to go bald.
 
It isn't simply whether other races have to be more human, but rather whether other races should have more genetic diversity.  Every species on Earth has a range of traits, so why should fantasy races be limited to a very narrow range of traits?
 
It can work if the group likes it that way, just as it can work if NPC's are always stereotypes instead of more distinct personalities.
 
Just because it can work doesn't mean groups should feel obligated to play that way. 
 
I like genetic diversity, just as I like cultural diversity.  I'm quite happy to allow fantasy races a range of traits, and to have cultures based on how I percieve those varied races would approach cultural issues based on their diversity.
 
Only the GM's and players' imaginations limit what they can create for fantasy races and their cultures.  Nobody should feel their campaign has to match someone else's opinions on what makes a 'proper' elf.  There are plenty of cultural concepts in stories and games that give wonderful diversity players can draw from if they want something different, but don't have time to design their own.

[The Dread Polack]

Thanks, Gimp, for making most of my points for me after I already wrote them. All that typing wasted...

One of the reasons we play fantasy is so that we can imagine ourselves in a world that doesn't work the way ours does. Unlike in the real world, we are able to make true assumptions about races because we created this world and we decide on the rules. What's the point of having fantasy races if there's no actual difference between them?

Of course, if that's not the world you want to play in, then don't. Anima is pretty loose with it's descriptions of the nephilim, so there's a lot of room to do what you want without even straying from the RAW. I personally find it more interesting to play fantasy races as being generally motivated by the same sorts of things (basic needs, desire for safety, wealth, status, reproduction), but with some "baggage" added on.

In Earthdawn, for instance, orcs have a natural rage that's part of their nature. Sometimes, they have good reason to be angry, but sometimes they just murder people and burn down villages. Of course, humans get this way too. We can relate to the concept to some degree, but it defines orcs in a way that it doesn't define other races.

[Gimp]

Thanks, Gimp, for making most of my points for me after I already wrote them. All that typing wasted...

I would have liked to read your take on it.  It wouldn't have been a waste for me, even if your points were similar to mine.
 
I've really enjoyed the take some games and stories have for other races other people stereotype. 
One where orcs are seafarers drawn more from orca than traditional forest orcs. 
One where other races are truly related very closely to humanity, with genetic differences only due to genes that don't function unless there is enough magical energy around.
One where orcs are warlike, but have a powerful civilization similar to a cross between the Mongols and Arabs.
One where all elves are extremely brutal slavers that tend towards internicine warfare.
One where dwarves are totemic clans with animalistic natures while still being fine artisans.
One where orcs are the finest riders in the world, ranging like the Mogols or Native Americans.
One where elves are trailer trash in the modern world, with an overweight queen that's hooked on daytime TV.
 
Any racial culture is going to have similarities in what they look for, as they would all need food, shelter, and safety to raise their families.  That's no different than animal races, though sentience adds more tools for overcoming obstacles.
 
How they face those challenges will differ at least as much as how real human cultures have faced those challenges, though variations in physical capabilities and limitations due to racial differences can have a significant impact.
 
If you have dumb orcs that are strong and tend to berserk rages, they are more likley to become raiders because they won't be as successful raising crops and animals.  Make them excellent riders, and you can develop them as raiding Mongols.  Make them have a love of the sea, and you can have pirates.  Take away the rage, and you can find more interesting things to do with them, while keeping them distinct.
 
Long lived elves would tend to take a long view of a lot of things, be willing to work through more adversity to come out far better off in the long run, and tend to try and take good care of themselves because they would face resultant problems for a very long time.  That alone would give a significant cultural shift.  Make them builders, and you would have incredible wonders of architecture and science.  Make them nature lovers, and you could have peaceful eco-fiends, or rabid eco-terrorists.
 
There is no reason not to come up with truly unique alien cultures, even if you start them with a kernal of a human culture to grow from to make things easier.