next »

[Lizbeth]

1. Is it me or See Supernatural advantage is a must-have? It negates large penalty and is triggered every time you fight a magician.

2. Are magical shields of any actual use? Even missed attack still drains shields hp which means they are to be attacked with maximum splits.

More to add later.

[VoidKnight]

Only in high supernatural campaigns is See Supernatural absolutely necessary. Since my games usually evolve from low supernatural to higher over the course of several levels it usually doesn't matter too much since by the time the party starts facing big supernatural threats they usually have some manner of counteracting them. This can be easily done through use of certain magical artifacts, spells, or similar.

I'm going to avoid answering the second question for now since I don't have my books with me but I think you have some concept of magical shields wrong.

[alphawhelp]

if a shield fails to stop an attack it doesn't take any damage, it's actually only missed attacks cause damage to the shield.

[Lizbeth]

Page 92 of core rulebook states that successfull defence drains hp from shield and unsuccessfull passes through it right to char's hp.

[exarkfr]

 

"shield fails to stop an attack" = "unsuccessful [defense]" = character is damaged
"missed attacks" = "successful defense" = shield is damaged

[daveceaser]

Well, let's take, as an example, a wizard who has cast the Free Access Spell Magic Shield.
They then have a shield that can absorb up to 300 points of damage and cost 60 zeon to cast.  If the person who is attacking them has does roughly 70 points of damage.  That means the shield can stop up to 4 attacks (with the 5th attack having its damage reduced).  This shield can also block energy attacks (which a normal shield cannot).  Also, keep in mind that, as a supernatural ability, the only modifiers that affect your ability to defend with magic shields are Surprise, Put at Weapons Point, Vision Partially Obscured, Vision Totally Obscured (p. 92).  So you have to worry about fewer negative modifiers, include the modifier to use it in multiple defenses in a single turn, which is a pretty big one. 

And finally, keep in mind, that if your wizard character is in such a situation where he has to defend himself from 5 straight attacks, then the tank in your party is not really doing their job. 

Is a magic shield as good as a regular shield? Possibly not.  Is it a good defense for a character that has amazing spells and can do things even at low levels that a none magic class has no choice of doing?  I think so.  Is it better to use a magic shield, which would use Magic Protection to defend with, which is a skill you would have high anyway, versus spending those precious DP to enhance a defensive skill?  I think so.  I think there are a lot of things to consider about a magic shield beyond simply the fact that the shield will run out eventually.  I think you will find that, only rarely, will your shield take enough damage to be destroyed before the end of a combat.

[daveceaser]

Also, as for See Supernatural, it is a very useful advantage, but not nearly a "must have".  Keep in mind that most magical attacks do not require see supernatural to see.  A fireball is made out of fire, and light beam is a solid beam of light, so all of them are visible, and have many of the same modifiers as projectiles, but you are not automatically blind to them.  See Supernatural, in my opinion, is useful more towards psychic matrices, most of which are invisible.  However, considering (depending on the level of supernatural in your campaign) that not every adventure is going to have a psychic enemy, not most fights are going to involve mostly peons who probably do regular attacks), and considering that the GM is probably going to take into account whether or not you have such abilities, it's probably is something most characters can live without.

[Lizbeth]

Blocking supernatural attacks is a cheap Dominion ability.
Mashing 3 attacks is possible even for starting characters, and it means each round renewal of shield – otherwise you'll find yourself with dodge 0 against next attack.
Also Magic Projection is generally lower than attack/block because of lack of class bonuses and ginormous MA cost.

[Zeru]

Blocking supernatural attacks is a cheap Dominion ability.
Mashing 3 attacks is possible even for starting characters, and it means each round renewal of shield – otherwise you'll find yourself with dodge 0 against next attack.
Also Magic Projection is generally lower than attack/block because of lack of class bonuses and ginormous MA cost.

Keep in mind many supernatural attacks are naturally fired Projectiles, which has its own penalties to block.

Magic Projection is also generally fairly comparable to Attack/Defense despite class bonuses, simply because they only need to spend 25-30% of their total DP to raise both, while anyone wanting to raise both Attack/Defense will be spending around 50%.

Level 1 Comparison for a Wizard vs a Warrior with both parties at 8 Dex.

Warrior: 300 DP split evenly with Attack + Block = 75 (base) + 10 (Dex) + 5 (Class) = 90

Wizard: 180 DP spent on M.Projection = 90 (base) + 10 (Dex) = 100

[Lia Valenth]

Mashing 3 attacks is possible even for starting characters, and it means each round renewal of shield – otherwise you'll find yourself with dodge 0 against next attack.

3 attacks is possible but very difficult for starting characters. But then so is having a shield with 500+HP. There are also better shields like the Light and Dark ones which do not take damage if the enemy can't damage energy (so your average soldier can't damage your shield at all).

There have been a lot of people arguing that magic shields are weak, and compared to psychic shields they are. Compared to a non-supernatural shield they are much stronger. Yes they eventually break, but if you attack the wizard 3 times he has a much better chance of defending against all three, for example at level 1;

Warrior: 300 DP split evenly with Attack + Block = 75 (base) + 10 (Dex) + 5 (Class) = 90
Wizard: 180 DP spent on M.Projection = 90 (base) + 10 (Dex) = 100

assuming the Warrior chooses the Extra Attack module and has an off-hand weapon, double bladed katana, etc he attacks with 65/65/55 while the wizard defends with 100/100/100 meaning more than likely the wizard wins hands down. If they have a light/dark shield up then you likely deal 0/0/0 to the shield and them (probably having spent too many recourses to get the multiple attacks to get the ability to damage energy). Even if you break through the shield on the third attack your now completely open for the wizards allies to attack you, and you take penalties for multiple defenses. The wizard will always have a better chance to successfully defend than you have to hit, unless you only attack them once, in which case their shield will probably not break. for a long time

Point is because of not taking penalties and the ability to bring shields up easily (mages at level1 should be able to make their basic shield as a passive action every round if needed) they are better than non-supernatural shields in general. Yes psychic shields are better because they don't require any real of recourses (like a wizards Zeon).

[Zeru]

While Psychic shield are easier to bring up, Magic Shields tend to be a lot stronger when pumped full of Zeon.

Royal Shield from the Creation Tree is one example, it gets a massive amount of LP very quickly.

[Lizbeth]

Magic Projection is also generally fairly comparable to Attack/Defense despite class bonuses, simply because they only need to spend 25-30% of their total DP to raise both, while anyone wanting to raise both Attack/Defense will be spending around 50%.

Level 1 Comparison for a Wizard vs a Warrior with both parties at 8 Dex.

Warrior: 300 DP split evenly with Attack + Block = 75 (base) + 10 (Dex) + 5 (Class) = 90

Wizard: 180 DP spent on M.Projection = 90 (base) + 10 (Dex) = 100

Yep, but also we have to max MA. 180 DP spent on MP leaves us with 180 points for MA which in turn makes MA 60, which is actually are minimum required to place shields without charging them.

Light/Dark shield is easily damaged with Aura Extension.

[Zeru]

Aura Extension also takes at least 60 MK to get, which means a level 1 character would have to take Martial Mastery I to get it.

Keep in mind that most Fighter types will also be interested in: Ki, Accumulation, Wear Armor.

So it isn't like the Wizard is the only one who has to spend DP in things other then "Attack/Defense."

In fact, if you look at it that way, Wizards have a much easier time spending DP thanks to free Zeon every level in addition to a single Accumulation pool. Not to mention the unique benefits of Magic such as Free Spells.

As an example:

Level 3 Warrior; 400 DP spent evenly with Attack + Block = 100 (Base) + 10 (Dex) + 15 (Class) = 125. 80 DP left for Ki, Accumulation, Wear Armor

Level 3 Wizzard; 240 DP spent on M.Projection = 120 (Base) + 10 (Dex) = 130
240 DP left for MA, Zeon.

So the Wizard has 3x the DP to spend on MA + Zeon then the Warrior does to spend on Ki + Accumulation, while still possessing a Superior M.Projection to the Warrior's Attack/Block.

[Lizbeth]

Aura extension costs 20 MK, 40 MK is an universal prerequisite required for everything. And also Aura Extension is a must have unless we want our char to be unable to defend from magic badly.

Situation I have now (test module, so levels are high for insurance).
Lvl 9 Weaponmaster. 1400 DP total, 840 Combat, 700 evenly on Attack + Block = 175+45 = 220+Dex. Weapon is Taurus with Aura Extension+Increased Damage, Str 11. 180 damage.
Lvl 9 Wizard Pow 8 Int 14. 1400 DP total, 840 magic. 400 MA + 440 MP = MA x9 (135) MP 220+Dex. Shield of darkness/light is 130 Zeon max which is 1100 hp.

As for me situation looks like "if your shield gets hit then you must renew it (consequences of broken shield is 100% damage remaining without modifying it as with normal attacks, which is harsh), and if your shield fails you die". And actually Wizard have to max Initiative and force Weaponaster to go on defensive. Am I missing something?

[alphawhelp]

shields are passive actions, they can be put up at any time, it's not necessary for the wizard to win initiative (he must win initiative to put the weaponmaster on the defensive but the same is true for any class)