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[alphawhelp]

There are a grand total of 3 basic Martial Arts that add a class bonus to Attack.  Shotokan being the most generous of these martial arts, providing the Tao with 5/5/10 for base/advanced/supreme.

The other two basic Martial Arts that add to attack only add +10 and even then only at the supreme degree, and they are Boxing, and Kempo

This is a stark contrast to the Martial Arts which add to Dodge, Block, or Both Dodge/Block at the same time, all of which except one add +20, except for Malla-Yuddah, but in a good way.  Aikido (both), Pankration (both), Capoeira (dodge only), Malla-Yuddah (block only, but a whopping +30), Sambo (block only), Lama (both), Kardad (both), Kuan (block only), and Soo Bahk (both)

And don't even get me started on Advanced Martial Arts bonuses, what with Velez obtainable at level 1 granting +20 to both defenses on the base degree.

Basically, Martial Arts are so lopsided in favor of defense, that in order to not have your defense completely overtake your attack, you are basically required as a Tao to take Combat Senses (attack).  Even going as gung ho as you possibly can for Attack martial arts bonuses, it is impossible to max out at 50 without heading into Advanced Martial Arts--EVEN IF YOU HAVE THE 3 BASIC MARTIAL ARTS GRANTING ATTACK BONUSES AT THEIR SUPREME DEGREE.

What do you think?  Is this advantage a must have for Tao or not?

[Lizbeth]

No they are not.
First of all it's ok to take one +attack style and be slightly more defensive. Second, Tao have decent MK which is further boosted by martial arts, so they can use +attack techniques.

[alphawhelp]

No they are not.
First of all it's ok to take one +attack style and be slightly more defensive. Second, Tao have decent MK which is further boosted by martial arts, so they can use +attack techniques.

Tao have really good MK and really good Accumulation prices, it's the 2 points per 1 Ki that stops them from being effective Ki users.

[Lia Valenth]

First of all it's ok to take one +attack style and be slightly more defensive. Second, Tao have decent MK which is further boosted by martial arts, so they can use +attack techniques.

That is not what is being discussed. The fact is that, if what Alphawhelp stated is true, it isn't that they can choose to specialise in defence, but that for all intents and purposes must specialise in defence. The only other class that has something like this is the Technician (due to having no bonus to defence). This could be intentional (Tao are defence while technicians are offence, as the only Domine classes in the game) but that seems more like a cop out than an answer.

Further, requiring a Tao someone to use a +attack technique to be equal to a normal fighter without a +attack technique is unbalanced because both sides can gain +attack techniques. If taos were the only ones capable of +attack techniques this could be seen as a trade off, but as that not only are they not the only ones that can, but they are not the best at it (that would be technicians, and they get a bonus to attack every level) this cannot be fairly considered as part of the Tao class.

[alphawhelp]

The only other class that has something like this is the Technician (due to having no bonus to defence).

Actually there are a few classes that have a lopsided bonus, the Paladin, Dark Paladin, Ranger, Thief and Assassin have lopsided bonuses, as well as the Technician, but here is why I singled out the Tao.

The Tao gets no bonuses, whatsoever, as part of his class.  100% of his bonuses are to come from his Martial Arts.  And your selection of Martial Arts force you to specialize defensively.  You cannot specialize offensively.  Contrast Paladin/Dark Paladin, you play Paladin to specialize in Defense and Dark Paladin to specialize in Offense.  You play Thief to specialize in Defense and Assassin to specialize in Offense.  Ranger is kind of weird, in that it feels like the analogous class to the ranger was meant to be the Shadow, but the Shadow has a dual benefit while the Ranger does not.

But back to the topic at hand, you basically cannot choose to play an "Offensive Tao" limiting the Tao to a defensive class with no offensive analogue.

I don't consider the Technician to be an offensive analogue of the Tao, since I have experimented with several different Technician builds and discovered the most effective Technicians are those who underspend on their combat abilities, overspend on their Ki, and make up for it with offensive and defensive techniques with their cost optimized so that they can activate each one in a single round's worth of accumulation, potentially with more powerful techniques that need at most 2 rounds of accumulation.  So I consider optimizing a Technician's attack/defense scores to be kind of a silly way to play a Technician, unless you're at a high enough level where you literally have no desire for any further techniques.

The Tao, on the other hand, I discovered was most effective when Attack/Defense was maximized, particularly, Taos with Combat Senses can gain access to advanced martial arts much earlier than Taos without Combat Senses (which is perhaps a point I should have made in my original post).  Even if you choose Combat Senses (defense), which is kind of a weak option for Tao, you will still technically gain access to some advanced defensive martial arts a level or so earlier than otherwise, making the net power of the Tao go up dramatically.

Essentially, the bottom line is, there is no way to play a balanced or offensive Tao without Combat Senses.

[Kalis]

Even going as gung ho as you possibly can for Attack martial arts bonuses, it is impossible to max out at 50 without heading into Advanced Martial Arts--EVEN IF YOU HAVE THE 3 BASIC MARTIAL ARTS GRANTING ATTACK BONUSES AT THEIR SUPREME DEGREE.

What do you think?  Is this advantage a must have for Tao or not?

I don't really see the problem. Advanced martial arts are awesome, and there is no reason not to take them. The Combat Senses advantage is a terrible advantage to take in most cases. If you have the defense from your martial arts, you can just do an unequal investment in dp to make the final score equal until you catch up with offensive martial arts bonus.

[alphawhelp]

Even going as gung ho as you possibly can for Attack martial arts bonuses, it is impossible to max out at 50 without heading into Advanced Martial Arts--EVEN IF YOU HAVE THE 3 BASIC MARTIAL ARTS GRANTING ATTACK BONUSES AT THEIR SUPREME DEGREE.

What do you think?  Is this advantage a must have for Tao or not?

I don't really see the problem. Advanced martial arts are awesome, and there is no reason not to take them. The Combat Senses advantage is a terrible advantage to take in most cases. If you have the defense from your martial arts, you can just do an unequal investment in dp to make the final score equal until you catch up with offensive martial arts bonus.

the problem lies wherein as a level 1 character, I can take for 50 Development points, Tai Chi (advanced), Lama (base), Malla-Yuddah (base) and Velez (base) and begin play with a massive +40 class bonus to my Block, and I still have 10 more points that cannot be spent on combat abilities to play around with--probably to take Shotokan (base) and get a +5.  And the problem lies wherein I have exhausted all of my options for getting the class bonus that the Tao class does not get any other way except for buying Martial Arts.

And Combat Senses is an amazing advantage.  Most 1 point advantages are valued at around 20 development points if you look them up in the monster powers.  For 3 CP, I can get a bonus to my primary abilities totaling up to 100 DP worth.  Also, as I explained earlier, Combat Senses allows me to build a Tao that has access to certain advanced martial arts earlier than a Tao that does not have Combat Senses.

[Sharpandpointies]

I don't really see the problem. Advanced martial arts are awesome, and there is no reason not to take them. The Combat Senses advantage is a terrible advantage to take in most cases. If you have the defense from your martial arts, you can just do an unequal investment in dp to make the final score equal until you catch up with offensive martial arts bonus.

Agreed.  The Tao in my game has had scratch-zero problem keeping up with the fighters.  If it's not the fact that his defenses are so darned high for his level, it's the fact that he's doing stuff like getting multiple attacks at -10 rather than -25 (hugely making up for any 'lost' bonuses to Attack).

Plus, the guy qualified for Dumah at a nice low level, granting him not only an Attack bonus but adding onto it a damage bonus and armor penetration.

Bonus-wise, he's never seen a need to drop 3 CP on getting a bit more of a class bonus.

Yes, Tao get shorted on Attack at low levels - there are styles that provide it, but they're few.  But the amount of Defense bonuses they get make up for it until they can start taking Advanced Martial Arts...and they'll find a LOT of bonuses there, along with other benefits.  

[Sharpandpointies]

Ithe problem lies wherein as a level 1 character, I can take for 50 Development points, Tai Chi (advanced), Lama (base), Malla-Yuddah (base) and Velez (base) and begin play with a massive +40 class bonus to my Block, and I still have 10 more points that cannot be spent on combat abilities to play around with--probably to take Shotokan (base) and get a +5.  And the problem lies wherein I have exhausted all of my options for getting the class bonus that the Tao class does not get any other way except for buying Martial Arts.

And so you unequally dole out your purchase for Attack/Defend.

You're up something like +45 points of Class bonuses already - the other characters aren't going to reach that until level 4-5, by which point you'll be up another 10 on defense to +50 maxed out, have purchased Shotokan at a higher level, or Dumah, and be working into your attack benefits from advanced martial arts, and STILL be ahead in total 'class bonus points'.

You'll soon reach Mastery, at which point more advanced martial arts open up for you, giving even more attack bonus possibilities along with some insane other abilities....

There's no need for Combat Sense.  Granted, if you want to layer it on top to get crazy bonuses at a lower level, that's dandy.  :)  I have nothing against people taking Combat Sense, but it's by no means necessary for a Tao to play 'keep up'.  ^_^

That's on top of having multiple defenses for free automatically, special armor piercing stuff, multiple attacks at -10, hitting on the energy table, etc, etc.  Whatever you've chosen.

[Zeru]

I'm honestly not seeing the problem here.

As others have pointed out, Combat Sense is both terrible and entirely unnecessary for the Tao.

So what if it is easier for the Tao to specialize in defense than offense at early levels? The vast majority of Martial Arts offer very significant advantages aside from just the Class Bonus to Attack and Defense.

Heck, Tao can have a MUCH larger overall class bonus then any other Warrior class until 10.

As you pointed out yourself, the Tao can START with a class bonus of +40 Defense and +5 Attack, this is about 7 levels worth of class bonus over every other class at level 1.

Also, why only look at the base Martial Arts? A not insignificant amount of Advanced Martial Arts give you more then enough to hit the +50 cap by the time you should, and you will qualify for them easily enough if your invest your DP correctly.

If you really want your Attack to be even with your Defense early on, just invest more DP into it, it isn't a difficult problem to solve.

[Lizbeth]

Tao have really good MK and really good Accumulation prices, it's the 2 points per 1 Ki that stops them from being effective Ki users.

Sure thing their cost is higher because otherwise they'll be "who need the technician?". But they have option to reduce Ki cost with MK, so they are perfectly fine.

[Heart of the Tiger]

It's not really the point of this discussion, but if you feel betrayed because of the lack of bonuses to the Taos attack, take some levels in Technician. You'll get more MK, more attack as an innate bonus and the cheapest multiliers on ki stuff out there.

I know, not everyone wants to change his/her class, but as a Tao it is really effectife to multiclass into Technician, or the other way reound.

[Lizbeth]

40 DP sink to multiclass? Why not to take some MA that just boost Attack?

[Sharpandpointies]

It's less for that, and more for the wicked boost to Ki Accumulation and Point purchasing. 

15/Accumulation versus 10.

2 per Ki versus 1. 

Getting some bonuses to Attack is really icing on that cake. 

[Raybras]

and the 40 dp comes out of the infinite pool(where secondary skills are found) so your primary isnt affected.