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[Lizbeth]

FearlessElbow, multiclass is abusable, so what?

[FearlessElbow]

FearlessElbow, multiclass is abusable, so what?

Well, I was just responding to the comment that Sharpandpointies made about it being nuts to switch back and forth every couple of levels between Tao and Technician.

Personally, I'm just not so sure it is.  Nuts, that is.  And I don't even think it's abusing anything.  The whole point of having a rule about class-switching is that you can do that (GM permitting, of course).  And, as mentioned previously, it's stated as having been done by named NPCs.  It's not even really power-gaming, particularly as Domines are supposed to be fairly closely linked.  I think it becomes power-gaming when you have someone switching from Warlock to Wizard for Zeon, then Weaponsmaster for Wear Armour, then Assassin or Freelancer for skills, then Technician for Ki etc; all the while completely abandoning the character's essence and the Secondaries that help define the character in a role-playing sense.  I'm not advocating anything like that.

Anyway though, the main point addressing the topic of the thread (focusing a Tao towards Attack) was all the suggestions after that in my post.

[Lizbeth]

The whole point of having a rule about class-switching is that you can do that (GM permitting, of course).

As far as I can understand the whole thing the class switching is like changing the idea of your character. And most often it is used to create a class which have advantages of two other classes with only drawback being loss of secondary abilities which are considered inferior anyway. Such exploits generally spit on the whole class balance idea built around costs of different stuff. I suppose that if developers ever wanted to create a class like "Tao MA cost, Technician points and accumulation cost — they'd implemented it from the beginning — the same way Warrior is basically a mix of Weaponsmaster and Technician.

[Lia Valenth]

As far as I can understand the whole thing the class switching is like changing the idea of your character. And most often it is used to create a class which have advantages of two other classes with only drawback being loss of secondary abilities which are considered inferior anyway.

I have to disagree. Due to the loss of secondaries your actually weaker, statistically, than a strait class. You gain the bonus of two different classes, true, but at a weaker amount than either of those classes at full power. Very few class changes actually strengthen the character. Tao to Technician or Weapon Master to Paladin (or vies-versa) can, but at a cost. Freelancer to Anything is an advantage, but that is a note able exception.

[Lizbeth]

I have to disagree. Due to the loss of secondaries your actually weaker, statistically, than a strait class. You gain the bonus of two different classes, true, but at a weaker amount than either of those classes at full power. Very few class changes actually strengthen the character. Tao to Technician or Weapon Master to Paladin (or vies-versa) can, but at a cost. Freelancer to Anything is an advantage, but that is a note able exception.

First of all, class switching easily abused when you have to make character at stated lv, not to grow it from scratch — eou can change class only once to get the desired benefits. Actually I find it a big flaw by itself.
Second, most of the times only power boosters combos are used. Tao is the most notable example — he have no class bonus to loose, so you can quit him as long as you bought all the MA you wanted and then switch to Technician, basically switching 40 free dp and 5hp per level for 20 MK and reduced cost of Dominion.

[Spirit_Crusher]

I have to disagree. Due to the loss of secondaries your actually weaker, statistically, than a strait class. You gain the bonus of two different classes, true, but at a weaker amount than either of those classes at full power. Very few class changes actually strengthen the character. Tao to Technician or Weapon Master to Paladin (or vies-versa) can, but at a cost. Freelancer to Anything is an advantage, but that is a note able exception.

First of all, class switching easily abused when you have to make character at stated lv, not to grow it from scratch — eou can change class only once to get the desired benefits. Actually I find it a big flaw by itself.
Second, most of the times only power boosters combos are used. Tao is the most notable example — he have no class bonus to loose, so you can quit him as long as you bought all the MA you wanted and then switch to Technician, basically switching 40 free dp and 5hp per level for 20 MK and reduced cost of Dominion.

Lizbeth, I would not call that abuse in any way, and I don't think it goes against the spirit of a character. Tao and Techie are closely related in concept. Plus, "once you have all the MA you want" could well mean 15th level or so, if you're aiming for arcane advanced MA

[VoidKnight]

I feel like I should add my two cents here. The way I see a tao/technician class change is a person who has mastered many martial arts and has decided to more fully explore the options that Ki Dominion has opened for them. Since they have no reason to stay within the tao archetype, they become a technician. They can only change to a technician after they have enough experiences in their life to take them to the next level. It looks balanced and realistic enough to me.

[alphawhelp]

At level 13 if you focus on attack or defense with a 50 point difference in your ratings, also assuming +50 class bonus, you will have a 300 in either attack or dodge or block, which is what you need for the majority of arcane level MAs

So Tao has reason to stay Tao all the way to level 13 (and beyond if they want Arcane MAs focused on the opposite ability from what they specialized in)

[Lizbeth]

Spirit_Crusher, I see it as abuse from the logical standpoint. First this guy spends all his DP on attack, defence and MA. Then he have sudden change of heart (and class) and he ceases to spend his DP on MA but starts to buy Dominion points and accumulation.
Things go worse if we start at level 10 — it is beneficial for us to state that our technician leveled up to lv 8 with his bare 10 damage fist, and then switched to Tao to suddenly learn MA at Master degree.

Since they have no reason

That's what I call a flaw in design.

So Tao has reason to stay Tao all the way to level 13

It depends on how much MA you want to have. Also as I pointed above if you start from high level enough you can begin as tech and then switch to tao.

[Lia Valenth]

Spirit_Crusher, I see it as abuse from the logical standpoint. First this guy spends all his DP on attack, defence and MA. Then he have sudden change of heart (and class) and he ceases to spend his DP on MA but starts to buy Dominion points and accumulation.
...
It depends on how much MA you want to have. Also as I pointed above if you start from high level enough you can begin as tech and then switch to tao.

Two points,
1) Arguing that you can do ridiculous things in a system by starting out at, effectively, the highest levels, is not exactly all that surprising.
2) I find this as less of a flaw and more of intentional. It seems to me that a Taoist who is finished learning Martial Arts is supposed to become a Technician. I believe this was intentional in the creation, and considering the anime influence this makes a lot of sense considering all the anime where the main characters did this. Dragon Ball, HunterxHunter, Tokyo Majin, etc. Considering the influence of anime, Taos becoming Technicians is less of a, "change of heart" and more of a, "logical advancement".

Doing it the opposite way, going from Technician and switching to Tao makes a lot less sense, but as I stated if your starting out from a high level in any system you can do things that do not make sense and are extremely powerful.

[vytzka]

Even Final Fantasy had class changes in the very first game so one could say that class changes to unlock your full potential (especially such iconic ones like Weaponmaster -> Paladin/Technician) are well and truly in the spirit of the source material.

[Lizbeth]

Two points,
1) Arguing that you can do ridiculous things in a system by starting out at, effectively, the highest levels, is not exactly all that surprising.
2) I find this as less of a flaw and more of intentional. It seems to me that a Taoist who is finished learning Martial Arts is supposed to become a Technician. I believe this was intentional in the creation, and considering the anime influence this makes a lot of sense considering all the anime where the main characters did this. Dragon Ball, HunterxHunter, Tokyo Majin, etc. Considering the influence of anime, Taos becoming Technicians is less of a, "change of heart" and more of a, "logical advancement".

Doing it the opposite way, going from Technician and switching to Tao makes a lot less sense, but as I stated if your starting out from a high level in any system you can do things that do not make sense and are extremely powerful.

It's not significantly more ridiculous than the discussed tao->technician change. It is still "I spend all my DP from tao to MA and don't give a spit for Dominion pool and accumulation, then I spend all my DP from tech to Dominion pool and accumulaton and don't give a damn about MA".

BtW Goku is pure technician, he never actualy studied any MA. However animawise I'd provide him with Shotokan because unarmed damage 10 is lame.

[Lia Valenth]

"I spend all my DP from tao to MA and don't give a spit for Dominion pool and accumulation, then I spend all my DP from tech to Dominion pool and accumulaton and don't give a damn about MA".

BtW Goku is pure technician, he never actualy studied any MA. However animawise I'd provide him with Shotokan because unarmed damage 10 is lame.

1) I do believe Tao would care about Ki pools, accumulation less so but it is important to them. Martial Arts grant MK to be used in Ki Abilities, and most Tao I have seen do have a technique or three.
2) I believe Goku did study martial arts, and had little Ki, in Dragon Ball, then in Dragon Ball Z he switched to Technitian. But, even assuming Goku has always been a Technician, the same can not be said of the other characters, Krillan, Yamcha, Master Roshi, etc. who definitely started as Tao and moved to Technician.

[Lizbeth]

1) I do believe Tao would care about Ki pools, accumulation less so but it is important to them. Martial Arts grant MK to be used in Ki Abilities, and most Tao I have seen do have a technique or three.
2) I believe Goku did study martial arts, and had little Ki, in Dragon Ball, then in Dragon Ball Z he switched to Technitian. But, even assuming Goku has always been a Technician, the same can not be said of the other characters, Krillan, Yamcha, Master Roshi, etc. who definitely started as Tao and moved to Technician.

1. Powergaming Tao builds do exactly as I said especially if they start ath the stated level. Non-powergaming.. I assume they can stay Tao.
2. Goku haven't studied any MA, I just recently read the manga. And about others — it's quite possible that they stayed tao which'd explain why they never had flashy effects compared to Goku, Vegetta or Piccolo. (also it can be explained with race or lower level)

[Spirit_Crusher]

lizbeth, i can agree with the "logical" standpoint.
By a pure mechanical standpoint, however, it isn't always convenient to switch to tecnician from tao.
Some arcane martial arts are hell of powerful, and if you don't want to impair your per-level attack and defence gains, which is the opposite to powergaming unless you go "accumulation-only" technician, you can get just one every 2 to 4 levels.
Once I'm in the range of buying arcane MA with a tao, I would NOT give up such privilege for a couple of MK and a discount on Ki that's just gonna impact 10 DP per level anyway (since I'm not renouncing to spend 50 dp in attack and defense even if I get Techie).

Weaponmaster level 1 for armor or modules, then switch to any other martial class, is more in line with what you're suggesting.