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[Zeru]

Really, Tao one of the few fighter classes that benefits the least from switching to Technician. It already has immense MK gain through Martial Arts, and the bonuses you gain from the various Martial Arts are generally better then what any extra MK you would have gotten from Technician.

Accumulation and Ki are the primary attraction for switching, but Tao has the lowest Accumulation costs short of the Tao, and you don't really require a HUGE amount of Ki to get things done.

The Class bonus is basically a non-issue since the Tao gets Class bonuses from various Martial Arts, and most of the ones that give + to Attack are ones you want anyway.

[Sharpandpointies]

Really, Tao one of the few fighter classes that benefits the least from switching to Technician. It already has immense MK gain through Martial Arts, and the bonuses you gain from the various Martial Arts are generally better then what any extra MK you would have gotten from Technician.

Accumulation and Ki are the primary attraction for switching, but Tao has the lowest Accumulation costs short of the Tao, and you don't really require a HUGE amount of Ki to get things done.

It's working out quite well for a character I'm currently playing.  

Not to say it's necessary by any stretch of the imagination, but it's certainly a potential thing to do in those levels between the times one is buying martial arts.  With Versatile, it costs a whopping 20 points to switch the classes - it does eat up some secondary skills, but at the benefit of allowing for really cheap Accumulation.

Which isn't a bad thing, given that Tao are probably using up all their extra 10% attack/defend on martial arts...

[Lizbeth]

Versatile cost 1 cp – totally not worth it.

Also about multiclass, as for me it's required for idea. Not to make something like tao with technician accumulation and pools (haven't spent a dpoint on dominion being tao, then invest in it like mad, cool story) or dark/light paladins swap after level 10 (just because of innate attack/block bonuses).

[Sharpandpointies]

All depends if one wants to save the points on the DP.  :)

Honestly, I didn't go with Versatile.  My character is a somewhat crazed, brain-damaged, Orochi-blooded loon.  The loss of some skill points is perfectly in keeping with her issues.

The swapping classes comes from the fact that she's not only a prodigy at hand to hand combat, she's a bucketful of Ki.  And trained in a powerful 'martial art' (a bunch of martial arts coupled with a Dominion Tree) focusing on Ki use and overwhelming people.

So...Tao/Technician cross.  :) 

[Lizbeth]

My character is a somewhat crazed, brain-damaged, Orochi-blooded loon.  The loss of some skill points is perfectly in keeping with her issues.

So how do you call warlocks, warrior summoners and warrior mentalists who spend none of their DP on secondary skills?

she's not only a prodigy at hand to hand combat, she's a bucketful of Ki.

Sounds like "expert in whatever I need". So "not only prodigy in attack, but a bucketful of defence" is a good reason to paladin switching?

So...Tao/Technician cross. 

Well, as far as my experience tell the players will try to justify builds like islamic terrorist + rabbi as long as it is beneficial for them.

[Heart of the Tiger]

Versatile cost 1 cp – totally not worth it.

I agree. Not for Tao/Technician. For Technician/Mentalist... maybe.

On the other hand, its a lot cheaper than having to pay 3 CP for Combat Senses.

[Sharpandpointies]

So how do you call warlocks, warrior summoners and warrior mentalists who spend none of their DP on secondary skills? ;D

There are people like that in real life, who focus on a couple of things.  I call them characters who have focused on two extremely intensive fields to the detriment of other interests.

And the 5 +10's and 2 natural bonuses help them seem a little more knowledgeable. :)

And, in effect, it's similar to my own character's situation, where her DP are getting eaten up by focusing on two areas: Martial arts and Ki (rather than, for example, Psychics and Primary Combat, or Mentalism and Magic, or Primary Combat and Summoning...etc).

Sounds like "expert in whatever I need". So "not only prodigy in attack, but a bucketful of defence" is a good reason to paladin switching? ???

...Well, as far as my experience tell the players will try to justify builds like islamic terrorist + rabbi as long as it is beneficial for them.

That sounds suspiciously like an accusation.  :)  I'm feeling threatened!

Seriously, though, without writing out the whole thing here, the character is set up and noted in her background and RP to be exceptionally gifted in certain areas (martial arts and the corresponding Ki use, including knowledge of such through specific skills like 'History: Martial Arts).  Fighting-wise, what I wanted was someone skilled in hand to hand who was on a par with a Technician in terms of Ki ability - starting as a Tao and switching to Technician immediately for a long period seemed to be the best way to go at that.

She's also utterly hopeless in most other areas, and played as such.  The game, thus far, has comprised something to the tune of 900 In Character posts with two fights, both of which have lasted under 20 posts from everyone.  I've had oodles of fun playing her completely foundering in anything but combat, which has comprised the vast majority of the game thus far.

Care for a link?  :)

Sometimes the player wants a build and finds a justification for it...other times, the player has a solid concept in mind and figures out a build that suits.

I like to think I've done the latter.  :D  Milage, of course, may vary.

[Sharpandpointies]

In my own opinion, while one might choose to call foul on every single class-switch as powergaming, it's something that's actually in the rules and even done by name-level NPC's in the game.  

And a Tao that switches over to a Technician - a martial artist who forgoes strict study of the martial arts for deeper research into the domain of Ki - doesn't exactly sound like a horribly unnatural thing to me, or indeed, out of the question.  As a GM, it wouldn't perturb me, any more than I would be bothered by a Weaponmaster who, having come face to face with Ki and seeing how effective it can be, has decided to switch class to Warrior for a little bit more learning in that area.

Milage, of course, may also vary on the above.  :)

[Zeru]

It doesn't really bother me from a fluff standpoint at all, in fact, it makes more sense to me from this standpoint.

What bugs me is that it is relatively unnecessary for the Tao in comparison to any other Warrior archetype mechanics wise for the reasons I pointed out earlier.

[Lizbeth]

And, in effect, it's similar to my own character's situation, where her DP are getting eaten up by focusing on two areas: Martial arts and Ki (rather than, for example, Psychics and Primary Combat, or Mentalism and Magic, or Primary Combat and Summoning...etc).

But both Martial Arts and Dominion are from Combat Abilities, so you can spend only 60dp per level on both of them, and 40 have to go somewhere else.

Care for a link? 

Sadly that forum is dead for about half a year now. And also it was for evil empire language speakers. I however have one quote, so

<P1> lolth touched mineral earth dwarf monk 2\barbarian 1\fighter 2\ranger 3\deepwarden 2\argent fist 2\fist of the forest 2\psychic warrior 2\binder 2\crusader 1\warblade 1. That should work.
<P1> Excellent combination of roleplaying fluff and combat effectiveness
<P1> DR, over the top Con, Con to AC three times, manoeuvres, immunities, saves, lots of attack, lots of damage
<P1> And unusual personality, that's important!
<P2> Where did you take Smite from to qualify for Argent Fist?
<P1> blast, need to add some paladin. and ordered chaos.

In my own opinion, while one might choose to call foul on every single class-switch as powergaming,

I don't mind powergaming. What really upsets me from GM point of view it's when character acts as if he read the rulebooks. Something like "at first my weaponsmaster didn't care about dominion and invested DP in combat and wear armour, but then I suddenly realised that I want some Dominion, so I first switched to Technician and then started to learn ki". And that miraculous switch is unexplainable except in terms of game rules.

[Sharpandpointies]

But both Martial Arts and Dominion are from Combat Abilities, so you can spend only 60dp per level on both of them, and 40 have to go somewhere else.

And?  I'm not following the problem.  A chunk has to come from that 40 to switch classes at least once.  And if I only have 60 points to spend in Martial arts, primary combat, AND Ki, unlike the case of the Warlock, who can bust out 100% of his stuff straight on magic and combat.  

Plus, it happens like...once.  Tao level 1, Technician for the rest of it.

Sadly that forum is dead for about half a year now. And also it was for evil empire language speakers. I however have one quote, so

<P1> lolth touched mineral earth dwarf monk 2\barbarian 1\fighter 2\ranger 3\deepwarden 2\argent fist 2\fist of the forest 2\psychic warrior 2\binder 2\crusader 1\warblade 1. That should work.
<P1> Excellent combination of roleplaying fluff and combat effectiveness
<P1> DR, over the top Con, Con to AC three times, manoeuvres, immunities, saves, lots of attack, lots of damage
<P1> And unusual personality, that's important!
<P2> Where did you take Smite from to qualify for Argent Fist?
<P1> blast, need to add some paladin. and ordered chaos.

That's just bizarre.  And what does that have to do with personality?  :( 

I don't mind powergaming. What really upsets me from GM point of view it's when character acts as if he read the rulebooks. Something like "at first my weaponsmaster didn't care about dominion and invested DP in combat and wear armour, but then I suddenly realised that I want some Dominion, so I first switched to Technician and then started to learn ki". And that miraculous switch is unexplainable except in terms of game rules.

Do characters actually walk around saying 'I'm a weaponmaster, but I think I'll switch to Technician...'   That sounds silly.  Certainly none of my PC's or NPC's consider themselves as 'classes' that can be 'switched'.  :)  

More likely they'd say 'I thought I was doing okay, relying on my armor and my skill alone.  Figured all that Ki stuff was a load of BS.  But then...that last guy just handed us our asses, didn't he?  Could you maybe...you know, show me some of that?  Yeah, I'll take time off my weapon practice to learn.'

To be ridiculously simplistic with the RP.  ;)

Anyway, point is it's in the rules, and it's a perfectly acceptable thing by game standpoint.  I've personally never had a problem with it, any more than I have with the 'dual-classes' (ie, Warlock, Warrior-Mentalist, etc).  Others might differ in their views, and that's cool.  :)

If it's reasonable.

.....

Not like that weirdness, above.  

[Lizbeth]

And?  I'm not following the problem.  A chunk has to come from that 40 to switch classes at least once.  And if I only have 60 points to spend in Martial arts, primary combat, AND Ki, unlike the case of the Warlock, who can bust out 100% of his stuff straight on magic and combat.

I mean you still have 40 DP per level on your skills. Surely you can spend them on hp though.

Do characters actually walk around saying 'I'm a weaponmaster, but I think I'll switch to Technician...'   That sounds silly.  Certainly none of my PC's or NPC's consider themselves as 'classes' that can be 'switched'. 

However the classes are just obvious. Not exact classes, but their archetypes at least. It's hard to mistake weaponsmaster armoured in three layers of steel with unarmoured technician who makes actions like "kamehameha! keoken! transformation!".

As for me if someone aims to wear armours and use techniques — they have to take fighter class from the beginning. I treat classes like the characters abilities and how do the predisposed to learn something. And to change your innate potential we need something more than I spend 20-60 of my skill dp.
But that is my personal opinion.

[Sharpandpointies]

I mean you still have 40 DP per level on your skills. Surely you can spend them on hp though.

I suppose I could spend them on HP.  Never do, though.  I'd rather use what I have (-40 DP for the switch) to buy skills that suit the character (stuff like History: Martial Arts, and Music).

It's little different than a Mixed-Classer (Warlock, etc) who decides to put a little less into one of their two Primaries in order to buy up skills, because a Tech/Tao one-time cross can't exactly do 'unrestricted' purchasing of both Ki stuff and Martial arts.  They have one shot at buying some martial arts, and unless they plan on swapping back and forth every two levels (which is nuts), that's it.     
 

However the classes are just obvious. Not exact classes, but their archetypes at least. It's hard to mistake weaponsmaster armoured in three layers of steel with unarmoured technician who makes actions like "kamehameha! keoken! transformation!".

The point being that a character probably shouldn't be thinking in terms of 'I'm a heavy weapons dude, but I'm thinking of changing into a Ki-using dude'. 

Rather, the guy with the heavy weapons and armor decides it might be better to actually start learning some ki techniques, and sadly accepts that in order to take the time to focus on and learn some of that, he's going to have move a little away from practicing with his heavy armor and weapons all the time. 

As for me if someone aims to wear armours and use techniques — they have to take fighter class from the beginning. I treat classes like the characters abilities and how do the predisposed to learn something. And to change your innate potential we need something more than I spend 20-60 of my skill dp.
But that is my personal opinion.

If you want to play it that way, I can understand it.  I view classes and such as focus of interest as much as I do talent - probably more.  A class represents what the person is putting time into learning, a focus that builds on itself. 

To each their own.   

[sourceofall]

Tao's can specialize in offense, the lack of attack increases can be made up for in one of two ways:

1. focus on initiative, barehanded has highest speed and there are several martial arts that increase initiative and one that gives a substantial bonus to attack if you go first. plus surprise penalties can be pretty backbreaking.

2. martial artists are the kings of attacking 3-4+ times in one round for very little penalties, and the penalty for blocking the 4th hit in a round is pretty huge.

and i guess there's a third way: focus on defense with aikido+lama+selene= your defense IS your offense. granted selene is hard to get mastered but it is just the stupidest thing. add a reactive teleport technique for additional hilarity.

[FearlessElbow]

Personally, I don't even see much of an issue with flicking back and forth between Technician and Tao on a semi-regular basis (until you've got more than 300 in Attack and Defense and picked up all the Arcane Martial Arts you want, at which point it's Technician all the way for the extra MK and cheaper Ki and Accumulation costs).

If you're really worried about losing Secondary Abilities by burning the 40DP to change classes though, you could always do it across two levels rather than one by stopping off as a Freelancer on the way.  Same DP cost (20+20 for the total change, rather than the straight 40), you still get a reasonably good amount of MK (although not as good as either Tao or Technician), same price for Ki as Tao, but a bunch of skills at +10 on top.  You still lose the 40DP for the change, but effectively gain 100DP worth of skills (or worth even more if you dump them into the more expensive Intellectual skills, but as a Tao/Technician-crossbreed you're more likely to want to buy stuff like Style, Acrobatics, Athleticism, Sleight of Hand, Feats of Strength, even Dance - basically anything that helps you get the Martial Arts).

Of course, if you really want to focus on Attack for a Tao, you can.
Assume you have a Dex of 10 (it's better if you've spent the CP on boosting Dex to 11, but that's up to you).

There's two main ways to get a pretty decent attack (certainly by Level 2).

Spend 210DP getting your Attack up to 120.
Put 90DP into getting your Defense up to 60.
Take Kempo as your first Martial Art, making it half-price.  Get Basic and Advanced, for a total of 10DP.
Take Lama (Base) for 10DP to give you a +10 to defence straight away.  That puts you back within the 50 point limit for the gap between Attack and Defence.
Take Dumah (Base) for another 20DP which will give you a +20 bonus to Attack (but you can't use it yet because the Attack-Defend gap is too big).  You do get all the -2 to your opponent's AT and +10 to breakage stuff though.
Take Sambo Base and Advanced (20DP) to give you a +10 to Block, which in turn frees up 10pts of your Dumah Attack bonus.
You're now at Attack 130, Block 80, with 30 extra points of MK (so in total more than a Level 1 Technician).  By the next round, you put more into Block, and that frees up your extra 10pts of Dumah bonus.

The other way is:  Attack 120(210DP), Defense 50(70DP). Get Tai-Chi as your 1st MA, get to Advanced (Total 10DP), and then take Velez (20DP) for a +20 to your Defense.  Again, take Lama(Base) for another +10, costing another 10DP.  So that's +30pts of Block, for 40DP spent, Taking your Block up to 80 (and within the 50 point gap).  Got to be careful here, because you're getting close to your Max number of Martial Arts for your combined Attack+Defense points.  Then get Kempo (Base & Advanced) and Dumah again, for a total of 40DP, and once again you get half of your +20 Attack Bonus from Dumah (the rest to be freed up at Level 2).
Again, at Level 1 you're Attack 130, Defence 80, but this time with 70 points of MK on top of your initial 30.  And you're just about within your cap of 5 different Martial Arts.

They're both a little wasteful initially though, since you're not getting your full bonus immediately.  But Option 2 is pretty nice, because you're getting two Advanced Martial Arts at Level 1.  And with both, you have 10 points of Attack to come free at Level 2, on top of what you spend.

Actually, screw it.....  the next Tao I make, I may go down that route!