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[Keldain]

Hello everyone, after playing some games and getting my Samael expansion to 300 planned out, I was thinking about picking up a Black Sun starter and wanted to know how best to expand from there. ^_^

[Lizbeth]

Promethea Clover Deimon Raziel Nk-X. Never played BS, but their mini range is small, so the choices are limited.

[Ape2020]

Well with the starter you get Promethia, Styx, and Type-005.  Promethia is great undead supporter so a staple in a Black Sun Team.  Styx is okay if you have room but not really vital, at least not yet.  The Type-005 is consider one of the weakest units around so lets forget about them until we bet more Plot buffs AS has hinted at.

Best bet is in this order:
Boxset Promethia (40)
Deimon (45)
Raziel Archetypum (45)
Type-012: Hunter (35)
Shinobi (20-40) or Arkham (35)
===Gets you to 200 point game===
Clover(70)
Boxset Styx (25)
===If you going start right a way with 300 game===
Sub out a Raziel for Nk-X (60-75 Non-Leader)

The thing about Nk-X is that its not useable until a 300 level game so if your building up you its best to go with Raziel.

Note the level costs in red is taking into account Dawn of the Dead Org Advantage.  Also I dumped a Shinobi in since Promethia is the only staple in the list and she will be busy with the Hunter and of course the Raziel.  So having a Shinobi will allow you to have a sniper hunter while not being another burden on Promethia to AP boost.  Plus the Shinobi might be of use for the Free Agent Org Advantage as soon as they clarify how.  Arkham is the best alternate choice to try to split the burden and risk with a second cheap controller, but he is even more squishy then Promethia. 

One last note is that when Lynn Steiner comes out it will give you a whole new route to go.

-ape2020

[-DE-]

Ape's route is pretty much the only one worth going at the moment. You could sub Shinobi for Sophia and proxy Raziel Archetypum with Nk-X if you don't want to run him as Nk-X and buy another copy of Archetypum. Later on you could buy another Hunter and maybe Dereck?

Styx, Type-005 and Kingsley are, to put it bluntly, not very good, and neither is Arkham, to be frank. Once Lynn and Type-009 come out there will be more worthwhile units to play with, but until then the above are the only units you should bother with. Black Sun is still rather limited in terms of choice.

[Ape2020]

Yeah there are some rather underwhelming units right now in Black Sun. 

Type-005 is damage resistance low Att, LP, Defense, slow unit, one shot kill wonder for most units with any offensive punch.  I still have a little hope for them if they continue to add plot cards like Elite Squadron to pump them up or other units like the up coming Type-009.

Styx is sorta a tough unit to play well, as he is too dependent on Promethia.  He is suppose to be her defender but most of this abilities are reactive after she is likely dead.  And once Promethia is gone Styx will be gone too Out of Control.  Really should have been 10 levels like Aqua is then he would have been a great throw in character.

Kingley suffers from too much levels attributed to being a controller.  Plus for all he sacrifices he his specials aren't that powerful when compared to say Damien.  Finally he has no way to gain LP without using Raphael's Gift.  Especially since there are no wanderer healers or healers in Black Sun.  He might have been more viable if he was 45 levels or Blood Stone wasn't a one shot deal.

Arkham main problem is really his 2AP regen.  This is okay for tanky characters since they can survive it.  But Arkham's most useful abilities, Controller, Soul Scavenger, and Legion of Crows means he too close to the action for such a squishy character.

-ape2020

[Kagemaru]

Plus the Shinobi might be of use for the Free Agent Org Advantage as soon as they clarify how. 

In the FAQs of the Spanish HELS tournament, is clarified in this point

"48.Shinobi.
¿Como se ve afectado por las ventajas de Agentes libres y manipulación?
Los Shinobi son a todos los efectos Agentes y no errantes. Con lo que no se pueden beneficiar de las reducciones de coste de ninguna de las dos ventajas. Para Agentes libres contarían como unidad viva, permitiendo un errante más."

more and less you can read this...

how affect to the shinobis the advantages  of Free Agents and Manipulation?

The Shinobi are to all effects Agents and NO Wanderers. In addition they can´t to benefit from cost reduction of Free Agents or Manipulation. For Free Agentes, they count as alive unit, then this let to get one wanderer more with cost reduction.

my english isnt very good, if you dont understand something say me...

for example this group is legal

Kagemaru leader
Deimon
Shinobi x 4
Kujaku
Khaine D'elacroix
Sophia Ilmora
Drake

i am playing this group and is really strong...

[Ape2020]

That's good to know finally and that we now have solid base for Free Agents.  So that is another route to go for BS.

-ape2020

[Shiro_Kuro]

"BS" is right - I mean, I know Black Sun is big on using Wanderers, but a ten-character list that only has one actual Black Sun figure in it seems like overkill a bit! ^^;

[Ape2020]

"BS" is right - I mean, I know Black Sun is big on using Wanderers, but a ten-character list that only has one actual Black Sun figure in it seems like overkill a bit! ^^;

Well they are a corporation so "outsourcing" would make sense.  Better then the 7 man Wiss list with no actual Wiss characters.

Kagumaru
4xShinbi
3 Dragons

-ape2020

[Keldain]

Thanks for the replies everyone, kinda sad to see Black Sun is quite underwhelming, the concept for their faction is awesome, the execution is well... lacking.

I've decided to hold off on them for now and as stated prior continue building up my Samael. ^_^

[Ape2020]

Thanks for the replies everyone, kinda sad to see Black Sun is quite underwhelming, the concept for their faction is awesome, the execution is well... lacking.

Its more of a case of growing pains then bad execution.  Type-005 and Styx were the first models on the scene for BS.  Which like many of the other factions had their pluses and drawbacks.  Only BS has other filled out Org to compete against. 

Arkham might still be workable once BS gets more guardain type units like maybe Bridget or Velvetaire.  Plus he is a cheap Controller with some rather interesting skills so he might be more useful as more undead come out.  Much like Genma first seemed lacking but is getting better with each Summon Creature that comes out.

The same might be said with Kingley, who still works in that he is the toughest living controller out there.  Remember Promethia is the number one target in any Undead BS party and she is pretty squishy.  Might best to think of him as more a front-line warrior who can survive being up there with the rest of the Undead shock troops. instead of trying to stay far out of the fray.

Styx might cost too much and too dependent on Promethia but if you got 25 levels to spare he can be good as a bullet and prowler flusher. 

Type-005 you can already see them trying to improve them with Plot cards and other units.  If they continue on that path Type-005 might be salvageable.

Plus all the units after Kingsley look quite impressive.  Deimon, Nk-X non-leader, Type-012, Type-009, and Lynn Steiner. 

They do have one of the top leaders in the game in Clover.  And many of those Undead types you can take more then one to fill out your ranks.  Plus they now cleared up Free Agents allowing Shinobi to be BS living agents makes that now a viable party build.

-ape2020

[Hiro]

Black Sun is perfectly viable. The only units that is really underwhelming for their cost is the type 005 and Kingsley. Styx and Arkham may have their weakness but its balanced out by their cost. Arkham has some nice abilities if your able to manage his 2 ap regen.

They have many excellent units that compare favorably to the other organizations

Both Raziel types are powerful units with Promethea's buffs. You have the option of making them DR or not. Non-DR they are great dodging tanks.

Hunter are fantastic for their costs and are Black Sun's solution to Snipers/Hidden prowlers

Type 009 is everything the type 005 should have been. Its a suicide bomber but this fragile DR units are not going to last long anyway.

Deimon is one of the best 45 point characters. Damage and status effects and hes not as risky when used with Lynn who can pop the status effects off him to buff herself.

Lynn Steiner is a very good leader for such a cheap cost while Clover is one of the best leaders in the game period.