next »

[Sphynx]

Psi Wraith

Psi Wraiths combine the power of the Mentalist with their exceptional subterfuge skills.  Most Psi Wraiths are individuals who never had a chance to get proper training in their Psychic skills and instead find themselves forced to cope or die.  Street urchins and the likes tend to use their uncanny advantage on the streets for the purpose of survival, becoming what others call Psi Wraiths.

Archetype		Psychic, Prowler
Life Point Multiplier		20
Life Points		+5 per Level
Initiative		+10 per Level
Martial Knowledge		+15 per Level
Innate Psychic Points		+1 per Level

Primary Abilities			Secondary Abilities
Combat Ability:	Limit 50%		+1 Athletics:	2
+1 Attack	3		+1 Social	2
+1 Block	3		+1 Perceptive:	2
+1 Dodge	2		+1 Intellectual:	3
+1 Wear	3		+1 Vigor:	3
+1 Ki:	2		+1 Subterfuge:	1
Accumulation Multiple:	25		+1 Creative:	2
Supernatural Ability:	Limit 50%		Reduced Costs
+5 Zeon	3		None
MA Multiple	70
+1 Magic Projection	3		Innate Bonuses
+1 Summon	3		Primary
+1 Control	3		None
+1 Bind	3
+1 Banish	3		Secondary
			None
Psychic Ability:	Limit 50%
Psychic Points:	10
+1 Psychic Projection:	2

[Lizbeth]

I'd say 10 hp per level and/or 10 init per level and 15 DP per PP. Because as for now it is psychic who exchanged his 10% in Psychic for hide and stealth and 20 MK.

[Raybras]

As prowler psy, id go with 5 lp 10 init, i drop mk to 15, pay limit 60% pp cost 15, +10 notice and +10 search

[Lizbeth]

60% is for straight class, combo-classes like illusionist, warlock, warrior mentalist, warrior summoner have 50%

My mistake about the illusionist. But illusionist have Init 5 Hp 5 and MA 60.

[Sharpandpointies]

As prowler psy, id go with 5 lp 10 init, i drop mk to 15, pay limit 60% pp cost 15, +10 notice and +10 search

I'd probably do the same.  It more closely matches the ideas of Prowler-Fighter hybrids, who get 60% combat, and the Prowler-Mage hybrid who gets 60% magic.  Giving this one 60% Psychics seems perfectly logical.  I would, however, increase the Psychic Point cost to 15, much as the Illusionist suffers in magic (MA 60), and probably give a few more sneakery skill bonuses (again, using the Illusionist as a base). 

[Sphynx]

I'd say 10 hp per level and/or 10 init per level and 15 DP per PP. Because as for now it is psychic who exchanged his 10% in Psychic for hide and stealth and 20 MK.

Can't do +10 life per level, the only classes that ever get more than +5 per level are ones with a Warrior Archetype in them.  Even the Technician and Shadow only get +5 and they're fighter types.

+10 Initiative could work (and personally, I'd love it since this Class was made for my character), but I opted out of it primarily because the closest equivalent to a Psy-Prowl is a Myst-Prowl (Illusionist) and she has only +5.

As prowler psy, id go with 5 lp 10 init, i drop mk to 15, pay limit 60% pp cost 15, +10 notice and +10 search

Dropping MK to 15 is possible, and maybe set against a +10 Init a good trade-off.

To raise Psychic Ability to 60% I'd have to raise the cost of Psychic Points to 15 (as Sharp and Pointies stated).  That's a drop in power for the class.  (on 600 points, with 150 going into Projection, you have either 50% at 10 for 15 PPs, or 60% at 15 for 14), that difference looks lots bigger at higher levels.  I'm not crazy about measurably weaker Psychic Abilities, and given the choice between 50%/10pts or 60%/15pts, will choose the former.

So, you guys think MK 15, +10 Init is better?
  

[Lizbeth]

Yes.

[Sphynx]

Ok, so basically, he's a Mentalist who loses 1 PP per level in exchange for +10 Stealth, +10 Hide, +5 Initiative, Reduced Ki Cost, and +5 Martial Knowledge per level.

That seems... unbalanced?  It seems like it's built well, but when compared to the Mentalist, makes you wonder a bit...?

Warrior Mentalist loses 1.84 PP per level in exchange for +5 Life, +10 MK, +5 Attack, +5 Block, +5 Dodge and a 66% reduction cost to all Combat abilities except Dodge.

Wizard Mentalist loses 1 Psychic Point per level in exchange for +100 Zeon, +10 Magic Appraisal, +5 Occult, and reduced Supernatural Ability costs.  And at a HUGE cost of limited spending room and having to buy The Gift along with an Advantage to use Psychic Powers (few excel at either because they need skills, and such).

Unlike a Wizard who has substantial reasons for playing a pure Wizard(60% and best costs), there seems to be no real reason to actually play a Mentalist.  Maybe a Mentalist should get: Innate Psychic Points: +2 each level...

hmmm....

(admittedly, I'm kinda thinking as I type... sorry about that)

[Sphynx]

Ok, thinking I'm seeing the problem... too much freebie, leaving him tons to spend on stuff like Dodge.  Maybe instead of +10 Hide/Stealth, it should be +1 Subterfuge: 1?  At least make him spend points for that Hide/Stealth bonus...  25 points to Dodge, and another 20 to get that +10 each... (or he could opt to buy whatever from there, Lock Pick, Trap Lore, whatever...)

[Sphynx]

Ok, here are the current adjustments from "Mentalist".

-1PP (60 from 50 percent) and increased cost for Intellectual Abilities.
+5 Initiative, +5 Martial Knowledge, reduced Ki and Accumulation cost, reduced cost for Subterfuge Abilities.

Now I think it's underpowered, but decently enough to be playable.  Could either put Intellectual back to 2 instead of 3, or alternately, offer some +5 or +10 to thematic abilities (Hide/Stealth?) to make it comparable to a Wizard->Illusionist comparison.

[Lizbeth]

Analysing the Illusionist I'd say it's 60% 15 DP per PP 20 MK and the choice between 5 init or bunch of secondaries.

[Sphynx]

Unfortunately, we don't get the same level ratio if we try to emulate the Illusionist.  The 60% and 15DP for PP would be like changing the Illusionist from MA Multiple of 60 to MA Multiple of 75.  You get closer to the same levels by 50%/10DP per PP than 60%/15DP per PP. 

So, 50% and 10DP per PP is closer to Illusionist levels than 60% and 15DP per PP.

Originally however, that is exactly what I had when we first started this discussion.  20MK, 2 secondaries, and 50%/10DP.  But I do think that the Redux of Subterfuge Abilities to 1 in lieu of freebie secondaries is a better approach, even if it doesn't mirror the Illusionist.  No?  (PS.  Totally willing to put the 20MK back in place of the +5 Init you suggested).

[Sharpandpointies]

I still feel that 60%/15 pp matches better.  It's superior to the Warrior Mentalist and inferior to the Mentalist.  Granted, it's a big chunk.  Perhaps you could add some other bonuses somewhere?  Slightly better skills, perhaps?  An initiative bonus + some skills? 

I think skills are a key point.  Any Prowler-type worth their salt has good skill bonuses (okay, the Shadow's are the weakest of the Prowler-hybrids).  Check out the Ranger and the Illusionist for skill bonuses.

Frankly, working off the Illusionist they should be getting some really good skill bonuses.

Where they get hurt in comparison to the WM is where the WM mentalist can pull the dodge of taking the Psychic combat module, then not bother with Psychic Projection and dump everything into PP.  On the other hand, something very similar happens with the Warlock versus the Illusionist.  :(

[Sphynx]

Having played the original Wraith for a few years (you'll see it's a character class in my Excel from ages past), I'm sure that 60%/10DP is off.  The only reason for revamping it, is because the 60%/10DP has to go away for it to work as a class.  Unlike the Warrior Mentalist who can focus on Psychic Points because he/she doesn't need to buy Psychic Projection so gets to spend all 50 points on 3PP for 45. That's 4PP per level, when you add in the +1 per level.  A Mentalist who needs to buy Projection will get 4.5PP per level, 3.5 from the 35 points left over after 25 points into Projection, +1 per level.  The 60%/15DP gets only 3PP per level after 25 being spent on Projection (35/15 = 2, +1 per level), and nothing to help keep him up with others of similar power levels.  50%/10DP will get him 3.5PP per level, nearly on par with the Warrior Mentalist, and equal to the Wizard Mentalist who also gets Supernatural abilities to compliment his/her Psychic ones.

It -has- to be 50%/10DP to have any hopes of being balanced.  60%/15DP makes the character grossly underpowered, and nothing to help balance it out.

As for the skills, as you can also see from the old excel, it originally had +10 to Hide and Stealth AND +5 to Trap Lore and Picking Locks.  I reduced it because I never had much to spend that extra 25 points per level on... I'm 100% -for- putting it back, and you're right that the Illusionist setup agrees with it.  BUT... again, playtesting, I think it's more interesting to have reason to put points into something (so when I first made this, I cut out the +5's, so that 20 of my 25 points would go there ).  I kinda like the Subterfuge of 1 instead of 2, in lieu of bonuses, but I'm sure that I'll always find something to spend my spare points on. 

[Sharpandpointies]

Up to you, man.  However it works out.  And yeah, I do see your point.

Myself, I feel that the considerable array of skill bonuses they would get if one patterns them after the Illusionist would help take care of the balance, but then skills are pretty important in my game.  :)

I'll note that the maxed out warrior mentalist you use as an example is going to stink on ice at anything but hitting stuff and tossing around psychics, by comparison (I know, I have one in my tabletop group, and they're hurting for skills even WITH the new skill rules..and they know it).  Which is kind of the point of a Prowler-hybrid - to do decently in their own area while having better skills.  :)

I mean, if the game is a combat-heavy game, prowlers and freelancers aren't going to do as hot as everyone else anyway.  :D