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[Cerufel]

Fire Mine (Lvl 40 Fire spell) is it a tangible object that has it's own presence?

If yes, then can Quick Transport (lvl 40-50 Free Access spell) actually allow you to transport Fire Mine to another location?

Does Quick Transport allow you to transport anything that has been created from a spell like a humunculus, minor creation, or "igneous mine" as described in the Fire Mine spell?  Quick transport talks about moving a character and mentions that it can move something with up to a 50 presence.

Necromantic Chimera (lvl 70 Necromancy spell) does the creature level up with you just like a Familiar since it states that the Chimera's existence is "...directly linked with the necromancer's soul."?

Thank you!

[Lia Valenth]

Fire Mine: That's actually a hard one. There is nothing in the spell that states it either way. I would say that no, the mine itself is not an item, but can instead be placed in an item. For example you could put it in a door, a carriage, or even a piece of paper. If that is how it works (and as far as I can tell it is up to the GM) then,
Quick Transport: would be able to teleport it as long as it could teleport the item it was attached to. Quick Transport can transport anything that is physical, humunculus and minor creations as well. If a fire mine is not material, as a form of immoveable energy, it could not move it. But if it were energy infused in an item (as I have it) then as stated it can.

Necromantic Chimera: No. Neither spell (This or Create Being) mentions the creature gaining level, so by all appearances they do not. If you want to have it advance a level all you have to do is stop maintaining it and cast the spell again with two more Added Effects.

[Cerufel]

Fire Mine: The lack of explanation was what I was hung up on.  The players in my group once Quick Transported a Fire Mine into the throat of an Enormous creature which blew it's head clean off.  I allowed it to be done because reading over the spells I could not find significant reason not too allow it.  (I don't like to waste game time in the books so I generally rule in favor of the players and look it up later). I re-read the spells later and still could not come up with a sufficient explanation. I like the idea of being able to place it in an object.  That would provide the PC's with plenty of fun too.  

Quick Transport: Okay, that's what we were thinking also.  The lack of more extensive explanations leads us to sometimes over penalize ourselves in-order to make sure we are operating within the guidelines.  Edit:*So that is why we wanted to ask first before allowing it.

Necromantic Chimera: Fair enough!

Thanks Lia!

[Cerufel]

Soooooooooo.... Okay. I have another question about the Necromantic Chimera.

Is the following possible:

Step One: Summoner binds a familiar to our groups Necromancer. (Necromancer would pick up all daily costs for this).

Step Two: Necromancer casts Life Perversion on his familiar, effectively making it an Undead.  It stops the Familiar's bodily functions but it doesn't say it actually would kill them, merely "...transforming it into an undead entity." The Familiar is granted "...animated CORPSE." Corpse being an important word here.  

Step Three: Necromancer has gathered many parts of dead creatures and puts them together with his now Undead Corpse Familiar and casts Necromantic Chimera (which requires CORPSES).  Now, if all of this worked, his Familiar would be a Necromantic Chimera and able to level with him.

..... thoughts?.....

This seems over the top to me but I am interested to know if it is really all that far fetched.

Edit: The reasoning behind the Familiar not simply becoming Unbound upon becoming Undead is that it never died and therefore has not lost it's soul, only it's physical form has changed. Assuming that the Union Bond is of a spiritual nature. 

I do wonder at the possible effects it would have on our Necromancer when/if his Familiar was made into an Undead, however he is a Vetala. *shrug*

The Necromancer would, of course, also have to maintain both the daily cost of the Familiar and of Necromantic Chimera. 

[Spirit_Crusher]

Necromantic Chimera creates a new being starting from corpses, not ANIMATED CORPSES.
Also, the level of the familiar can't surpass that of the creator, so I don't see the point here.
It would be much more effective to cast Life perversion + surpass death or however is called in english the level 80 spell.

[Lia Valenth]

Summoning is not my speciality, but it would not work officially. Life Perversion may be able to make Familier undead and level with you, I do not know, however you could not use Necromantic Chimera on it. Necromantic Chimera is a spell that creates a new form of life from nothing, if you used it the being would not be the Familier any more, and probably would not work on a living corps in any case.

However, the answer to this problem is a simple one, with a very difficult part to it. All you have to do is to get an Undead that is also a Summoner to make your Necromantic Chimera into your Familiar. To do this you have to create the Chimera, have the Summoner summon it, and bind it to you. Remember, while Undead cannot be affected by living Summoners, they can be affected by Undead Summoners.

The problem is, where do you find an Undead that is a Summoner. I suppose you could use the body of an enemy Summoner that you raise as an Undead with his skills.

[Cerufel]

Necromantic Chimera creates a new being starting from corpses, not ANIMATED CORPSES.
Also, the level of the familiar can't surpass that of the creator, so I don't see the point here.
It would be much more effective to cast Life perversion + surpass death or however is called in english the level 80 spell.

No Animated Corpses makes sense. I was to focused on the word corpses before to think about that. Also, rereading the spell it does say "...pieces from several corpses."  Which I don't imagine limits you to only chunks, I think you could use a whole dead body but it would have to be dead. :/

The point wasn't to make a creature that surpassed in level the Necromancer but rather create a Necromantic Chimera that could level up with the Necromancer. (and possibly provide the creature with traits that would not be normally found in combination with one another). 

Life Perversion and Surpass Death huh? Well we wouldn't want to kill the Familiar, that would defeat the purpose. But I guess Life Perversion can still work if he wished his Familiar to be Undead.

Summoning is not my speciality, but it would not work officially. Life Perversion may be able to make Familier undead and level with you, I do not know, however you could not use Necromantic Chimera on it. Necromantic Chimera is a spell that creates a new form of life from nothing, if you used it the being would not be the Familier any more, and probably would not work on a living corps in any case.

However, the answer to this problem is a simple one, with a very difficult part to it. All you have to do is to get an Undead that is also a Summoner to make your Necromantic Chimera into your Familiar. To do this you have to create the Chimera, have the Summoner summon it, and bind it to you. Remember, while Undead cannot be affected by living Summoners, they can be affected by Undead Summoners.

The problem is, where do you find an Undead that is a Summoner. I suppose you could use the body of an enemy Summoner that you raise as an Undead with his skills.

O_o I never conceived of an Undead Summoner. Wow, okay. I always just looked at the problem as the undead had no real soul with which to link to the person, therefore no Union Bond.

However, if you just need an undead summoner, well that might be hard to come across you are right, but if they worked for it I would definitely give them opportunity.  I imagine in addition to raising one yourself they could also be found in service to powerful Necromancers, of course why he would help is another matter.


Thank you again guys I appreciate the help.

[Spirit_Crusher]

I was in error, life perversion i not required.
Surpass death does not kill the familiar, it makes him undead. If your player could pay for Necromantic Chimera + familiar daily maintenance, he can pay for a familiar some levels above him. So how would the familiar die?

[Cerufel]

I was in error, life perversion i not required.
Surpass death does not kill the familiar, it makes him undead. If your player could pay for Necromantic Chimera + familiar daily maintenance, he can pay for a familiar some levels above him. So how would the familiar die?

"The spell must be cast at the exact moment of the person's death - or a few seconds before..." -Surpass Death lvl 80

So to feasibly do it your familiar would have to die or be on their way to death.  If you could do it perfectly you could certainly execute it just before they died though.  It does state that the spell does not cause death itself.

However, if you mess up bringing the Familiar to the brink of death without killing it (which would be a very difficult roll to make, not even mentioning potential fumbles). Seems like very risky business with potential disaster.  Of course nothing ventured nothing gained, but if the Familiar dies the Necromancer can suffer greatly not to mention loosing the Union bond. 

Life Perversion says it "...corrupts the essence of a living being and stops its bodily functions, immediately transforming it into an undead entity.  The affected character maintains the same Characteristics and abilities he had in life." Where as Surpass Death give the Necromancer the choice of making it into a Being Between Worlds or a Spirit, but it does not explicitly say it can create Undead.  I always kind of figured Surpass death was something you cast on your fellow PC's if you had no other way to keep them in this world (assuming the Necromancer couldn't cast Come Back From the Dead and there were no other options).

[Spirit_Crusher]

Well, I believe bringing him in the state between life and death would be enough, and that is not so difficult.

[Cerufel]

Well, I believe bringing him in the state between life and death would be enough, and that is not so difficult.

No? What would you roll to see if you could do that without going to far? I figured it might require a Very Difficult Medicine or INT check. Then a DEX check to see if it was executed properly (if using physical means to deal the damage).

You could take it to a doctor with The Gift and a high Occult ability (someone who might know the physiology of a Being Between Worlds) but I don't imagine a person like that would be easy to find.  Could make for good questing though. ^_^

BUT, that still doesn't make the spell able to create Undead. (Unless I am missing something or it was translated wrong and it's supposed to be able to make 'Undead or a Spirt' as opposed to what the book I have says --> "...a Being Between Worlds or a Spirit.") 

[Spirit_Crusher]

Well, if the gm is anal with the rules you can throw one or two spells\attacks with a fixed projection roll and calculate the amount of damage you would be doing.
If the dm is not anal, "I cut his throat and as the life fades from his eyes I cast the spell" would be more than enough. The medicine roll is another fine idea; I would make it far less difficult though. I don't see it very difficult for a (para)medic to understand "this guy is dying".
If you're adamant on having the thing undead, just cast Life Perversion AFTER Surpass Death and voilà.

[kplate]

I skipped past for most of this so sorry if some one said this already, first a summoner does not need to summon something before binding it, if you find or have a "monster" you can go right to binding it. Two you cant use summoning (including familars) on something with no soul, which means that you cant have undead familars or make things like any of the create something spells a familar with out using the the create soul spell in creation which makes the spell die and the "monster" becomes a life of its own. You can use stuff like the spell that makes your body not need to eat or anything for they are not undead then, also that whould mean if you use the lvl80(?) spell to make yourself undead you can never have a familar and summoning does not work on you for you have no soul. Fun fact have a super powerful ki user you need to kill? well hit him with the undead spell because without a soul his ki does not work unless he uses one ki power tree but then only that tree works.

[Cerufel]

I skipped past for most of this so sorry if some one said this already, first a summoner does not need to summon something before binding it, if you find or have a "monster" you can go right to binding it.

It's hypothetical planning for the future, we did not have anything specific (as far as what to use for a Familiar) in mind but thanks you are right, he should consider a Familiar he may already know (of).

Two you cant use summoning (including familars) on something with no soul, which means that you cant have undead familars or make things like any of the create something spells a familar with out using the the create soul spell in creation which makes the spell die and the "monster" becomes a life of its own.

We know you cannot Summon, Control, Bind, or Banish an Undead, or make them your  Familiar, that wasn't what we were planning to do per se.  We wanted the Necromancer to have a Familiar that was/became (after Binding) Undead.

1) Necromancer acquires a Familiar.

2)Necromancer casts Life Perversion on said Familiar.
~Life Perversion: a) Stops bodily functions, but does not kill, just immediately turns something/someone Undead. b) It specifically states that the character maintains ALL Characteristics and Abilities it had in life. 

Really all Life Perversion does is make the character considered an Animated Corpse and gives them Physical Exemption. That's it.  The spell says nothing about separating the character from their soul and thus from their Union Bond. In fact it implies the opposite by explicitly stating that they maintain ALL their abilities from life.  Meaning you could maintain your Union Bond and have an Undead Familiar of you so chose and you GM wasn't a hard buns about it.   

3)Yay, Necromancer has a Familiar and the Familiar is Undead. (I could see a GM not accepting this but there is nothing that says no to it in the rule book).

You can use stuff like the spell that makes your body not need to eat or anything for they are not undead then, also that whould mean if you use the lvl80(?) spell to make yourself undead you can never have a familar and summoning does not work on you for you have no soul.

Yes, if what we wanted was purely Physical Exemption we could defiantly do that.  Or, preferably, find or Summon a Being Between Worlds that already has this quality.

We had no plans to make the Necromancer an Undead himself.  Actually he is already a Vetala and quite happy with that.  The problem with a summoner being able to do anything with Undead was what we were trying to circumvent.  Also, as Lia said above, there are (though I was unaware) such things as Undead summoners who deal with all the summoning aspects but only with the Undead. 

Fun fact have a super powerful ki user you need to kill? well hit him with the undead spell because without a soul his ki does not work unless he uses one ki power tree but then only that tree works.

The only Necromancy spell that would actually affect a Ki user this way would be Drain Souls, where the Necromancer actually takes your soul "mwahahahahaha!".  Other spells like Life Perversion don't actually split the soul from the body, they just transform the physical aspects of a being.  As stated above, Life Perversion actually says you keep ALL you abilities, not just some, not everything but Ki, all of them.  So you are Undead... and that's about it. 

[kplate]

2)Necromancer casts Life Perversion on said Familiar.
~Life Perversion: a) Stops bodily functions, but does not kill, just immediately turns something/someone Undead. b) It specifically states that the character maintains ALL Characteristics and Abilities it had in life. 

Really all Life Perversion does is make the character considered an Animated Corpse and gives them Physical Exemption. That's it.  The spell says nothing about separating the character from their soul and thus from their Union Bond. In fact it implies the opposite by explicitly stating that they maintain ALL their abilities from life.  Meaning you could maintain your Union Bond and have an Undead Familiar of you so chose and you GM wasn't a hard buns about it.   

3)Yay, Necromancer has a Familiar and the Familiar is Undead. (I could see a GM not accepting this but there is nothing that says no to it in the rule book).
.
.
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Fun fact have a super powerful ki user you need to kill? well hit him with the undead spell because without a soul his ki does not work unless he uses one ki power tree but then only that tree works.

The only Necromancy spell that would actually affect a Ki user this way would be Drain Souls, where the Necromancer actually takes your soul "mwahahahahaha!".  Other spells like Life Perversion don't actually split the soul from the body, they just transform the physical aspects of a being.  As stated above, Life Perversion actually says you keep ALL you abilities, not just some, not everything but Ki, all of them.  So you are Undead... and that's about it. 

Having a soul is not an ability, the books say ALL undead = No soul. For ki powers you dont forget them and if you some how got your soul back you could use them again but as long as you are undead you ki powers are as good as not there. Also means that your familiar would stop being a familiar, the only reason its part of you is due to your souls mixing no soul means no familair.