next »

[Yaiban]

Yo, I am a mage by heart, a zeon-user to be precise. The first time I played anima I used a mage. I was stunned to see how our psychic could keep casting free "spells", how our technician could clear everything with ease, while I, as an air-user, ran out of zeon while being weaker than the rest (granted, I had lots of utility). Since then I have learnt the game and now use spells smarter.

Sorry for blabbering, Anyway, the spells "move", "control liquid", "control mineral", "control cold" and "control fire" are all very flexible. I wonder about the rules and limits on them. I understand that the core-book's coverage is limited, so I wonder what other seasoned players thinks.

1. How fast can one move the controlled entities/objects?
The spell move states a FV of 10, making me feel the other spells should be treated the same.

2. How fast can one alter their structure? (move excluded ofc)
Maybe a table is in order. I don't think it should take more than a split second to create a molten spear for instance. At the other hand, creating a small village with 130 presence worth of sand should take at the very least a few turns, but maybe even hours.

3. Let us say I control a sword with any of these spells (excluding fire), how can one determine damage and attack?
It is of course logical that I could use my MP to attack with a sword I control. Should it require some kind of training? Currently I've had to use custom weapon modules to use a sword. I find this fair and logical. What is my damage then? Warriors get strength bonus, should I be allowed to use my power bonus, considering power is the sole stat governing my spellcasting strength? Should one calculate some kind of equivalent to strength bonus using the mass one can control compared to what one controls? The physical strength of the spell should work in a similar way as ordinary strength.

4. How much effort/time does it take to control an object/entity?
I mean, altering the shape or moving a controlled entity, does it take any effort? Can one control spells as a passive action? Does it require an active action? If I control an ice shield, can I passively block attacks with it?

5. Controlling multiple entities/objects
If I controlled five swords with one control-spell (minerals for instance), can I attack with all of them? Do I get any penalties? Will it be like five people attacking? I think it is logical that I can attack with all of them, using rules for multiple attacks. 100MP would allow two of these attacks (or structure-altering for that matter), 20 MP would allow one, and 200MP would allow three. This feels quite custom, but not wholly insane.

I think these were all of my questions, looking forward to wise replies

[Spirit_Crusher]

1-you can control the form and intensity of said elements, not move them

2- You have a presence\ intensity number that you can manipulate. In the exact moment you cast the spell, the effect takes place, instantaneously.

3-There isn't any hard rule, but if you look under the minor telekinesis psi power, it says that if you use a power not intended to attack for attacking, your projection is halved. So anyrhing calculated in Presence terms goes under this. Stuff calculated in intensities can be used to attack with full mp. The stuff you control should be moved with Move Object spell, because the other spells do not allow you telekinesis. You could "attack" by making them change their shape, but MP would still be halved.

 Now, I remember reading somewhere, maybe Prometheum Exxet, that the stuff you propel with telekinesis et similia (Move spell) to attack gets a damage bonus as if the movement speed you give it was strenght. The "base" damage goes in base to the mass moved, between 30 and 150 as the Ballistics psi poer suggests. I would go with something in the vein of 100 damage for 150 kg of stuff moved, +15 for the speed, with half magic projection. If you use Move on a sword, half MP for attack, base damage of the sword +15.

4- This is very difficult. There can be two takes on this, and there's no official word as long as I know. Take 1, the restrictive one, is that when you cast the Control spell you change the shape of the object, mineral, liquid etc. and mantaining the spell means that you mantain the new shape, that reverts to original when you stop mantaining. To change the shape again, you should cast the spell a second time.
Another, less restrictive take, would be to allow you to change the shape again each round as long as you mantain the spell. If this is the case ,I would say that the type of action depends. To attack, with half MP, an active action. To defend, with half mp, a passive action. To slightly alter the shape a passive action could go. to alter it massively, an active one.

5-Completely out of the question. You can make a single attack with all of them, that can be considered an area attack if you move enough of them. But you can surely cast separate spells to attack multiple times.

[Yaiban]

1.
Liquid Control: "The liquid mass can even move on its own".
Mineral Control: "This spell enables the caster to move, reshape and control..."
Move doesn't need any explanation.
With this said I disagree with you.

2.
Considering that a control spell lets you take control of an elemental and keep giving it new commands, I'd say I disagree with you. Should the spell be maintained I think one should be able to keep throwing commands in the other aspect as well.

3.
I had not seen the wording of "Minor Psychokinesis". I find it really odd that in long distance attacks Proj. is removed by half if using psychic proj. but not if using attack AND psychic projection. What if one doesn't "hurl" objects, what if one instead performs a sword slash, just as if there was an immaterial fighter fighting.

4.
As I said in 2., controlling an elemental lets you keep commanding it, control minerals allows you to keep moving it, I think controlling something should let you throw new commands as in the two previous instances.

5.
Control minerals lets me control a rock, I transform this to a sword. I maintain the spell. I repeat this process 10 times. I now surround a man with my swords. What you're stating is that I can attack with all of them, giving the attacks space in my mind, without any kind of penalty? If you think that only half my MP would be used for projection, implying that one haven't got any good precision with the spells, I'd take this as it makes me feel it requires less processing of information, but if one was to recieve full MP, I'd say this would strain the mind to and beyond its edge, controlling ten entities simultaineously.

[Spirit_Crusher]

1- I'm basing my ansers out of Core exxet, the latest version of the rules. As that version stands, it does not specify if you can "move" fire or cold, it does specify you can move liquids, it does specify you can not move minerals. Maybe they changed it because it seemed too powerful? However, by RAW, you can move liquids but not the other stuff. If you want to houserule it, feel free.

2- I don't understand how it relates. Effects take place instantly unless as in rare cases happens it is specified otherwise. The effects take place immediately, be it creating a town or a simple spear. The author advised repeatedly on fora and faqs to ask for skill rolls to create complex things, so for creating a village you should need Architecture skill, for a spear an easy weapon crafting skill etc. The topic was about Atomic reshaping psi power, but it translates here. If you want to "create" things you need the Creation path.
But that is just a suggestion by the author.

3- That particular passage was never made clear by the author despite him being questioned several times on the exact meaning of that stuff. On the other hand he DID specify, I believe on the french forum, that powers not intended for attack or defense used those ways result in halved projection, no matter the "aesthetical" form you give those attacks.

4- Control minerals in the latest incarnation specifically does NOT allow one to move minerals. That said, I agree with you on the general reading, that applies to Move Object and Control Liquids;

5- The spell is not intended for attack, so halved MP. For any spell controlling an object, you get one attack. Projection do NOT suffer penalties when executing multiple attacks. So easy as this. Does this make the Move spell overpowered offensively? Yes. By RAW it works though. You could have a third level character that attacks 10 times in the first round, 20 in the second, 30 in the third, and so on, 'till he runs out of Zeon.

[Smilingknight]

I suppose that pure RAW you could interpret the spells this way, but no dm will ever allow it. And if you insisted on it you'd probably end up killed by a mage doing that exact, t same thing and not invited back to the table

[Spirit_Crusher]

I suppose that pure RAW you could interpret the spells this way, but no dm will ever allow it. And if you insisted on it you'd probably end up killed by a mage doing that exact, t same thing and not invited back to the table

The only problematic one is Move object, the other ones are fine. Even move object becomes useless against incorporeal opponents, damage resistant ones etc.

Also, these are "creative uses" that a gm could allow, but strictly by RAW the only spells that can be used to attack are the Attack subtype ones or those who state it specifically in the desription.

[Yaiban]

The last thing you said. Do you honestly mean that when you control and move something, something in the mage's brain stops him from making the moved object touch any person? There seems to be a lack of logic present.

[Cathar the Great]

The last thing you said. Do you honestly mean that when you control and move something, something in the mage's brain stops him from making the moved object touch any person? There seems to be a lack of logic present.

It's mostly a ruling to prevent low-level spells not meant for combat to be used in over-powered ways.

But I'm a bit confused by this thread. You posted a lot of questions but you already seem to have found your answers to them and reject other opinions on the matter. Why ask then?

Unless I've misread and/or misunderstood something completely.

[Spirit_Crusher]

The last thing you said. Do you honestly mean that when you control and move something, something in the mage's brain stops him from making the moved object touch any person? There seems to be a lack of logic present.

Judging things "by logic" instead of "by game balance" is the way gaming went in the 80's. It could sit well with some gm and not with others.
On the other hand, if you can use some low level spells to attack and defend as you please, why bother putting higher level and more requiring spells to achieve said effects in the game at all? In particular "I control the minerals to create swords and attack my opponent..." Why put the Spikes of Earth lv. 36 in the magic pah, if you're supposed to do the same with a lesser level and less requiring spell?

[Yaiban]

Sorry if I seemed hostile, I am merely trying to argue for my take of the rules. 

Why use earth spikes? Suppose the following: We have 12 intelligence. We channel 600 zeon to cast 5x120zeon earth spikes. Instant thirty 60-damage spikes. Not shabby Could kill tons of people!

[Spirit_Crusher]

Yeah, but if you can channel 120 earth "swords" with the same zeon... See my point?

[Yaiban]

Yeah but so far we had a limit on the number of attacks one can make, which is 2 with 100 MP, not unlike the normal combat system, so with no zeon except for a daily cost a wizard could make 2 attacks. With -25 penalty then

[Lagnalok]

Note that control X spells are maintained, so unless you cancel them the effect will continue and their effect is: change X at will. So if you target a stone, you can change its form as long as you maintain the spell, if it where differen it would only make sense to maintain the control mineral spell in order to control a beeing or to keep a mineral in a form that it could normaly not sustain by itself.

As long as you can change the form of whatever you control, you can also move it - you could order a stone to expand into one direction, forming round shape after 1 meter and retract all matter into that round shape, you will have moved the stone 1 meter.

The same goes for attacks, you can simply order a Stone to change its shape into a spike pointing in the direction of your opponent.

Same for Fire, it can already (sort of) move by its own, if you can also change its form, density and shape it should be even easier - especialy magical fire as it dosn't need fuel to keep burning.

Solution:
Use your projection to determine your range. If you want to enclose an opponent in the fire you control but he is out of range, you can't reach him in one turn (this can also be used for non combat situations). Roll HALF of your protection(as those spells aren't intended to attack) once per turn per spell.

Houserule: You could allow to split of intensities to attack different opponents, making it a semi area attack - as you need to split your concentration for this i would asing (after halfing the projection) the same penalties as the character would make an area attack in close combat.

Also, while it is nowhere stated in the rules, I only allow to manipulate exactly those thing that where targeted the first time - if you cast and maintain control mineral on a stone, you can only affect exactly this stone and nothing else- if you loose it or it cases to exist you will need to cast it again to affect something else.

Yeah, but if you can channel 120 earth "swords" with the same zeon... See my point?

Two problems here:
-Sowrds out of earth wouldn't do much damage to begin with.
-A rock in the form of a sword can't move on its own, so you would need to "craft" those swords while they are already flying at the opponent (a rather difficult forging skill check, thought you get some boni as you can form the material at will) - normaly it would be just 120 spikes that are flying... thought I doubt that you will live long in the Gaia setting running arround with 120 boulders following you on your way...

[Yaiban]

Lagnalok: Thank you for posting your take on this. It seems sensible and logical so I think I'll go with that interpretation.
Let us say I have 10 intensities, will I need to split them? They still affect an area, albeit small, since they are considered to be something similar to a bonfire. Aight?

[Lagnalok]

Lagnalok: Thank you for posting your take on this. It seems sensible and logical so I think I'll go with that interpretation.
Let us say I have 10 intensities, will I need to split them? They still affect an area, albeit small, since they are considered to be something similar to a bonfire. Aight?

Well with my houserule you can split (but don't have too) the intensities to attack different targets as you please: You could focus the whole bonefire into a single point and attack a single enemy (a attack with 10 intensities on one enemy) or you could (for example) spread it out and enclose the boss and his two minions in it focusing a more on the boss (like one attack with 6 intensities at the boss and one attack to each minion with 2 intesities).

Thought I woudln't allow to attack the same opponent twice with the same spell in the same turn (No spiltting into 1:1:1:1:6 intensities to attack the boss 5 times in the example above).