next »

[Maclein]

In Saga-1 Rulebook (small book inside Starters) basic Counterattack - action cost was two AP. I and my friends long time play for this small book. And basic Counterattack action has constantly.
After release Saga 1&2 book (when Counterattack cost has three AP), basic action Counterattack did not happen in our games.
Сonsider returning the same price (2 AP)?
To my mind: basic couterattack = dodge (1 AP) + illusory hope do one basic attack with "-2" penelty (for additional AP (one at Saga1 and two at Saga2).
In our time (Saga2) basic Counterattack not popular choose, because for the same price (three AP) you can do 100% Dodge action and 100% basic Attack.
Return to old cost would help expand the tactical possibilities of the game.
Discuss 

[Ape2020]

Uh your small book must have an error since counters have always cost 3AP since the days when all there were were starters and a few boosters, when I started.  I still have a bunch of the little cheat cards that came with those starters (old starters) and it shows counters 3AP.  Plus the Starter rules PDF on Oracle says its 3AP as well.  

Now while its not to useful most of the time there have been a few occasions when it came in handy.  It tends to really help out getting out of those chain attacks, especially since the attacker rarely has AP to dodge so even the with the -2 Att you have a chance to hit.  Plus you don't always have a 100% chance to attack, if you gone already or stunned.

Its like Escape or Climb, rarely used but around when you need them.  Plus changing them would really devalue those units with special counters, unless you want to go around and reduce there cost too.

-ape2020

[Releaser...]

I've played only a few games and we have never used counterattack, not even once. 3 is too much because you can indeed dodge and make a normal attack without the -2 penalty.

But, if it dropped to 2, everybody would use it most of the time (unless they wanted to keep actions for a special attack) because you essentialy make an attack with -2 but you dodge for free. It's a matter of perspective.

I believe if it would have dropped to 2, it should have a bigger penalty (-3 perhaps).
Lastly it might give you a tactical possibility to hit the same target twice without giving the chance to your opponent to react because you play next.

[Zeru]

I have seen counter-attack used primarily by Empire to break Chain's of Attack, Combat Mastery makes it much easier to land and their high base damage actually makes it dangerous.

It is a certainly a limited use action, but I have seen it used more often then Death from Above. 

[vytzka]

I have a tiny (English) Saga I rulebook I got with the Anima demo pack and it lists Counterattack as 2 actions. For all I know it could be a misprint (there's no visual chart with pictures of action counters, just text for that so it would have been easy to make that error). It also doesn't say that Charges get extra attack dice (only +2) so it could be some sort of very early version of the rules.

As for counterattacks I never use or see them used. For 2 points you would definitely see them more often, although if it would be balanced I cannot say. It would make Azriel feel slightly less unfair I guess?

[Lizbeth]

As for me, ooo counter is barely useful. -2 attack is severe enough unless you have A 6 char hitting D 8 char to break the combo.

As for oo counter, it may lead to defensive wars where both sides arer sitting in defensive waiting for riposte.

[Raith]

I believe the earliest of rulebooks say 3 AP then there was a run saying 2 AP, however all the "Cheat Sheet" cards says 3AP.

Counterattack as I teach it is there for specialists like Kronen and Claude who have specific abilities that utilize it.  If you adjusted that basic AP cost I think it would be to improve the idea of counters overall and you would want to adjust all the characters with Counters.

As was mentioned Counterattack is a really useful ability especially for the Empire.  Against teams like Wissenscraft with their fast initiative having something to break a flurry of blows is fantastic especially with critical mastery and their organization ability that improves it further.  Odin in particular is nasty and as a slow moving force im fine with sitting in cover to wait.

If it was reduced to two AP, yes I believe it would become more often activated but i think it would become too potent for certain individuals.

- Raith

[Maclein]

1) Chains-of-attack Breaker. Very rarely useful, because of:
a) Small amount of characters with powerful Chains-of-attack (I recall only two - Marchosias and Morrigan (and she is immune)
b) 3 AP cost does not allow to do additional Dodge in case of failure (Players prefer a more reliable version - basic Dodge from each attack in Chain)
c) "-2" Penalty - very strong surcharge. For example: Average Basic Attack = 5. Average Basic Defence = 9. In case of successful Dodge after attack, the attacker hit the target only with 6+ at d10 (att 5(-2) vs. def 9) (and this is assuming that the Defender is not Dodging).
2) Empire-style ability.
I played Empire for a long time. And often I prefer not to Dodge, not to mention to pay a huge price for the dubious bonus from Couterattack.
3) "Changing cost would really devalue those units with special counters, unless you want to go around and reduce there cost too".
No. Special counters usually provide benefits commensurate with its price. Change in price will lead to the rationale behind the price of everything Special Counters.
Example:
a) Special Counter Kronen have = 1 AP for Dodge, 1 AP for chance Attack (with "-2" and 1 AP for bonus +4 att/+2 dmg. And the player will have a choice between simple and special Counterattacks action. All logical.
b) Special Counter Rayne = 1 AP for Dodge (and she has 10 def!) and 3 AP for: "+2" bonus and FOUR attacks (6 att/2 dmg or (on the chance of Master Couterattack) 8 att/2 dmg). Amazing skill for amazing cost. All logical.
c) Special ability Elhaim. It is almost nonexistent in the actual play. One small correction in text ability "Defensive Mastery": Perfoming basic Counterattack cost is reduced by one Action Point). As a result, the character will gain buff, which will bring it to the level Arias and Al-Djinn (and still up to them, it will be too far).
4)  "It may lead to defensive wars where both sides arer sitting in defensive waiting for riposte".
No. It may lead to slightly more frequent use of this ability. It's not a secret that most players prefer to rely on a very strong attacks (10+ att with bonuses) and Defender is rarely on the best terms.

[Lizbeth]

I had some hard time trying to understand this 

a) Small character with powerful Chains-of-attack (I recall only - Marchosias and Marrigan (at that, she has immune).)

Griever. Although he is rarely used.

c) Special ability Elhaim. It does not see the game. One small correction in text ability "Defensiv Mastery": Perfoming basic Counterattack cost is reduced by one Action Point). As a result, the character will gain buff, which will bring it to the level Arias and AlDjinn (and still up to them, it will be too far).

I'd say that it's an overpower. I'd ruled this ability so that she don't have -2 penalty on counterattack.

[Zeru]

Arguments against the cheapening of a very, very weak  
1) Chains-of-attack Breaker. Very rarely useful, because:
a) Small character with powerful Chains-of-attack (I recall only - Marchosias and Marrigan (at that, she has immune).)

Rayne, Veronica, Iosara, Lilith, Griever, also possess chain attacks.

b) Cost 3 AP does not allow to do additional Dodge in case of failure (Players prefer a more stable version - basic Dodge from each attack in Chain)

It depends, sometimes a character has already activated for the round, but not spent their AP, and the opponent attacks with them with their last character, almost no reason NOT to counter-attack.

c) "-2" Penalty - very strong surcharge. Example: Mean value Basic Attack = 5. Mean value Basic Defence = 9. In case of successful Dodging and after attack, The attacker hit the target only for 6+ at d10 (att 5(-2) vs. def 9) (and this if Defender non Dodging).

Since the Defender is being attacked after they have spent most of their AP, the odds are good they have no AP to dodge. That said, Counter-attacks are extremely strong on certain characters, particularly high base damage and/or Critical Mastery using characters.

2) Empire-style ability.
I long time play for Empire. And I often better not to Dodge, and even more so to pay a huge price for the dubious bonus from Couterattack.

Very few character's in this game can choose to forgo dodging, even in Empire. The primary problem Empire has to overcome is bypassing the enemies' dodge. Utilizing Counter-attack on a high damage Empire character with Critical Mastery tends to cause respectable damage.

and for the record, I have been playing Empire since this game started.

3) "Changing cost would really devalue those units with special counters, unless you want to go around and reduce there cost too".
No. Special counters usually provide benefits commensurate with its price. Change in price will lead to the rationale behind the price of everything Special Counters.
Example:
a) Special Counter Kronen has = 1 AP for Dodge, 1 AP for chance Attack (with "-2" and 1 AP for bonus +4 att/+2 dmg. And the player will have a choice between simple and special Counterattacks action. All logical.
b) Special Counter Rayne = 1 AP for Dodge (and she has 10 def!) and 3 AP for: "+2" bonus and FOUR attacks (6 att/2 dmg or (on the chance of Master Couterattack) 8 att/2 dmg). Amazing skill for amazing cost. All logical.
c) Special ability Elhaim. It does not see the game. One small correction in text ability "Defensiv Mastery": Perfoming basic Counterattack cost is reduced by one Action Point). As a result, the character will gain buff, which will bring it to the level Arias and AlDjinn (and still up to them, it will be too far).

That will still lead to all of those skills being devauled, since they were costed with the 3 AP cost of counter-attack in mind. Just because they get additional benefits doesn't mean they weren't intended to be as cost efficient as they are.

4)  "It may lead to defensive wars where both sides are sitting in defensive waiting for riposte".
No. It may leed to slightly more frequent use of this ability. It's no secret that most players prefer to spend a very strong attack (10+ att with bonuses) and Defender rarely in the best situation.

Actually, the odds are quite good that it would turn the game into a counter-attack war. Attacking out of activation is a very significant benefit, especially when the enemy has just spent their AP attacking themselves.

Defender is usually at an advantage in most situations as it is, unless significant buffs are utilized on the Attacker. Only Critical Mastery really defies this trend, as Defense is on average higher then even Special Attacks.

----

Counter Attack isn't meant to be commonly used, it is a very situation specific action that can be quite powerful when used at the right time. The buffs it received with the arrival of the Saga 1+2 rulebook were enough to satisfy me, the chance to break Chain Attacks and ignore the -2 Attack penalty on a 10 are quite useful.

[Maclein]

Rayne, Veronica, Iosara, Lilith, Griever, also possess chain attacks.

Cost of Chain of attack commonly 3 AP for two attack. Cheaper and more reliable do two basic Dodge (or one Dodge). 3 AP versus one attack -  disadvantageous!
Chain of attack used only to get wasted opponent`s AP.
Rayne - good choose.I myself many a time use Shadow Techniks. But only for get wasted opponent`s AP.
Veronica - Legendary character. Largely because it is practically not on the table =). Counterattack  versus two 5/2? =)))
Iosara - OK. Almost the only case which requires a counterattack. But not the fact that you have 3 AP at this time  
Lilith, Griever, Anna - all have Critical Mastery. To declare a counterattack against the Critical Mastery???For 3 AP? Seriously???When the failure of nearly 100% fatal?

It depends, sometimes a character has already activated for the round, but not spent their AP, and the opponent attacks with them with their last character, almost no reason NOT to counter-attack.

Reason is the - to start the next turn in full AP. 95% players can not lie =)

Since the Defender is being attacked after they have spent most of their AP, the odds are good they have no AP to dodge. That said, Counter-attacks are extremely strong on certain characters, particularly high base damage and/or Critical Mastery using characters.

Always better just to wait his turn and attack one/two basic attack with "characters, particularly high base damage and/or Critical Mastery using characters" or make one powerful one special attack.

Very few character's in this game can choose to forgo dodging, even in Empire. The primary problem Empire has to overcome is bypassing the enemies' dodge. Utilizing Counter-attack on a high damage Empire character with Critical Mastery tends to cause respectable damage.

Rare exception to use.

and for the record, I have been playing Empire since this game started.

Record =)))

Actually, the odds are quite good that it would turn the game into a counter-attack war.

That would be a more realistic indicator of the battle (anime batlle =). Strike/dodge/couterstrike/dodge. There would be a higher price conducting super attacks.

Defender is usually at an advantage in most situations as it is, unless significant buffs are utilized on the Attacker. Only Critical Mastery really defies this trend, as Defense is on average higher then even Special Attacks.

Only from basic attacks. Special attakcs usually change situation (in the last time we have too many 10 + attacks or with Critical Mastery).
P.S. Sorry for my bad english =|

[Zeru]

Rayne, Veronica, Iosara, Lilith, Griever, also possess chain attacks.

Cost of Chain of attack commonly 3 AP for two attack. Cheaper and more reliable do two basic Dodge (or one Dodge). 3 AP versus one attack -  disadvantageous!

Not if you succeed on the first attack and prevent all the following attacks. You not only "dodge" all the attacks, but damage you're opponent. In the end you are spending 3, just like any opponent who used a charge or special attack.

Chain of attack used only to get wasted opponent`s AP.
Rayne - good choose.I myself many a time use Shadow Technique. But only for get wasted opponent`s AP.
Veronica - Legendary character. Largely because it is practically not on the table =). Counterattack  versus two 5/2? =)))
Iosara - OK. Almost the only case which requires a counterattack. But not the fact that you have 3 AP at this time  

All 3 of these characters are very likely to suffer heavily should you counter-attack them.

Lilith, Griever, Anna - all have Critical Mastery. To declare a counterattack against the Critical Mastery???For 3 AP? Seriously???When the failure of nearly 100% fatal?

Your are gambling against 1 potential Critical Hit vs 2-4 with the Dodge roll instead. It is risky, but like playing against Empire in general, it is always a gamble. The potential to completely stop Griever's 4 Attacks for 3 AP is quite powerful, this is especially true if you only have 3 AP remaining, as the 4 Attacks will likely kill you anyway.

Reason is the - to start the next turn in full AP. 95% players can not lie =)

If you are at full AP, you will start next turn at full AP anyway even if you counter-attack.

Always better just to wait his turn and attack one/two basic attack with "characters, particularly high base damage and/or Critical Mastery using characters" or make one powerful one special attack.

Not always, there are many situations were an out of activation Attack can severally damage if not outright kill a non-dodging opponent. Remember, most Defense + Dodge Rolls are higher then Attack + Attack Rolls.

Rare exception to use.

Critical Mastery is not a rare exception, especially in Empire.

That would be a more realistic indicator of the battle (anime batlle =). Strike/dodge/couterstrike/dodge. There would be a higher price conducting super attacks.

It wouldn't become an anime battle, it would become a Mexican standoff to see who throws the game first by attacking and putting themselves at a disadvantage due to low-cost counter-attacks.

Only from basic attacks. Special attacks usually change situation (in the last time we have too many 10 + attacks or with Critical Mastery).

Most special attacks do not get higher then base Defense without significant buffs, I was referring to all forms of attack, not just basic ones. Critical Mastery is normally aiming for a 20-30% chance to land a hit, the odds are in the Defender's favor.

Most high Attack special abilities also have low base damage, with a few exceptions like Ophiel and Dark Cheshire.

As I mentioned before, Counter Attacks are supposed to be situation specific, they shouldn't be thrown out regularly, otherwise the flow of combat becomes stagnant.

[Hiro]

Hey now, I had Veronica's Chains-of-attack finish off a weak Chesire. I shall forever have a place in my heart and team for her.

[vytzka]

It wouldn't become an anime battle, it would become a Mexican standoff to see who throws the game first by attacking and putting themselves at a disadvantage due to low-cost counter-attacks.

People standing around for hours not doing anything? Sounds like Dragonball Z to me.

[Raith]

There are plenty of times when its not just "better to make two normal attacks." Your activation might be over and its on the last players go for the turn, they are getting ready for a big finisher and you have the AP to spare for the counterattack as they will have no AP left to dodge after.

Lets assume the following the character being attacked has a regen of 3of 3, if they dodge they go down to 2 AP left that gets wasted for the turn, they will then be on 4 AP the following round but will have lost 1AP over budget due to regen limit.

If you don't counter in that situation you still get the full benefit of the dodge roll bt in turn there is a chance, yes a lower chance than normal, that you do additional damage to your opponents and you interrupt his attack and the trend is they in turn will not have AP left to dodge as most special moves cost 3 AP to perform plus anything they spent to move into combat, cause if they were in free move range why didn't you free move into them on your turn.

Yes, counterattack is harder, but its a tactic and needs though to use.  It shouldn't be like the RP version which is designed to more accurately reflect the back and forth between combatants in a faster, more repetitive bang-words-on-shield style of fighting.

Now there is one thing I think you are overlooking with your assumption that counterattack is a bit weak.  Sounds like your looking at average and low power characters using the ability like Empire knights with their +4 Attack.  What about the better characters? if you suddenly said Counter was an Attack and Dodge for 2AP (1 Ap each) all of a sudden it will become the default attack in a round, or worse sides wont will attack less often as they prefer to wait for their opponent to do something for the chance to act out of turn.

Not only must you consider when balancing a mechanic the "Average" use but you also have to balance for the extremes, because if there is one thing gamers and WAR gamers in particular its finding that extreme use and making what should be an occasional tactic into the main thrust of their armies use.

- Raith