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[|Highwayman|]

hey there everyone, greetings from Poland!

before I get to my question I'd like to thank you all for all the useful information you're posting on these forums - as I've been an avid reader of them for quite some time now, lurking anonymously in the shadows

but now as I've finally decided to bit the bullet and start gamemastering an Anima game I've found some problems and questions that I cannot find an answer to and was hoping you guys could help me out

Is there really a difference between Attack Ability (single) and Attack Ability (multiple) Ki effects? As well as between Additional Attacks and Limited Additional Attacks?
Because as explanations go everything seems perfectly clear but when I start reading the various Ki Techniques from Dominion of Ki or "clarifying examples" which follow some Ki effects description logic starts to fail me...

let's start easy:
a simple technique with the only effect of Attack Ability (single) granting a +50 to Attack Ability. Let's assume my character has 120 final attack ability. When making a single attack and using this technique I get +50 to attack for a total of 170 - all clear here.
But what if I decide to make an additional attack by reducing my attack by -25, now:
do I get 2 attacks at 145 final attack total,
or just one with 145 and the other is at 95 [because Attack Ability (single) affects only 1 of those attacks]?

What happens if we decide to complicate things a bit more and also would like to make an off-hand attack with a second weapon (let's assume the character has Ambidexterity so only suffers a -10 penalty) - would the +50 for the Ki technique apply to off-hand attack?



things get even more screwy for me when talking about Additional Attacks:
Additional Attacks Ki Effect states that you can get +X extra attacks at your full Attack Ability, and all other effects of this technique are applied to all of those attacks - so if I'd like to create a technique which grants me 3 additional attacks with +50 bonus to attack should I use Attack Ability (single) or Attack Ability (multiple) here? My gut feeling tells me Attack Ability (single)would be enough here to grant its bonus to all attacks BUT then the questions arises is there ever a need to use the more costly Attack Ability (multiple) Ki effect?

and for the icing on the cake now - Limited Additional Attacks; again just reading the description seems perfectly clear, but then the example following it throws me out of whack:

For example, a Technique that grants two additional attacks, as well as +50 bonus to Attack Ability and another +50 to Damage would allow a character to perform three attacks with +50 to his Attack Ability and Damage on only one of them.

maybe my English isn't as good as I think it is but it seems to me you can read this example in 2 ways:
A) that all of the attacks get +50 to Attack Ability and only one of them gets +50 to Damage
B) that only one of those attacks gets both +50 to Attack Ability ad +50 to Damage, while the others get nothing extra

now if it's A - WHY? I don't understand this...
if it's B - OK, that's perfectly clear but a bonus question arises: would using Attack Ability (multiple) and Damage Augmentation (multiple) here make all of the Limited Attacks receive both of these bonuses?

and finally about Attack Ability/Damage Augmentation/etc. (multiple) and (single) - IF you don't need to use the (multiple) variant of those Ki effects in combination with Additional Attacks for all of the extra attacks to receive the bonuses AND Limited Additional Attacks always applies the various extra effects of a technique to only one of them - what's the point of the (multiple) variant of those Ki effects? cuz I can barely see one [affecting off-hand attack, as the (sinlge) variant Ki effects may be read that they don't affect off-hand attack but so far I have found no way in Anima to make more than 1 off-hand attack in a turn, and paying much steeper costs for the bonuses to affect just 1 more attack seem to me like not such a great deal)

sorry for a mile-long post and I hope I’ve managed to make it comprehensive enough that you guys will be able to help me out – let me know if not and I’ll try to make my doubts and questions more clear

[alphawhelp]

Attack Ability Multiple will let you apply to all your attacks if you split your attack pool normally.

For example, if you take Attack Ability (Multiple) +50 and then make two attacks, it is more or less equivalent to Attack Ability (Single) +25 & Additional Attack +1.

However, here are some notable differences.  Attack Ability (Single) +25 & Additional Attack +1 is only good for offense, while Attack Ability (Multiple) applies to every attack you make in a round including counterattacks.

So lets say you have Selene at the Arcane Degree (bear with me here), and you take Attack Ability (Multiple) +50.  Well, you can make your two attacks at +25 each, and then every counterattack you make after that will have your normal counterattack bonus (which is doubled) plus an extra +50 from your Ki Technique.

Limited Additional Attack means secondary abilities only apply to a single attack in the action, regardless of whether or not the abilities normally apply to multiple attacks.  (I provide another example below)

The blurb on page 54 of DE is worded poorly.  it should be "For example, a Technique that grants two additional attacks, as well as +50 bonus to Attack Ability and another +50 to Damage would allow a character to perform three attacks (with +50 to his Attack Ability and Damage on only one of them)."

Does that make more sense?  In other words, option B

No, using Attack Ability Multiple does not let you get around Limited Additional Attack rules that all other effects can only happen on one technique.

anyway, once again, multiple allow you to apply effects to all your attacks, not just attacks gained from Additional Attack.

For Example (final Example I promise).  On Page 54 DE top right corner, you see that it is possible to use Additional Attacks and split attack.  So for example, if you have Additional Attack +2, you can make 3 attacks, or 4 attacks at -25 penalty each (or 5 attacks for -50 penalty each, and so on).  However, abilities that are "Single" only apply to (Additional Attacks + 1) Attacks.  So if you have +50 Attack (Single) and Additional Attack +2, you can either make 3 attack with +50 bonus, or 4 attack, 3 with +25 bonus (+50 from tech -25 from penalty), and a fourth attack with -25.

If you take Attack +50 (Multiple) and Additional Attack +2, you can now split 4 attack and all of them are made at +25 instead of just the first 3 attack.

You may decide it is not worth the Ki cost (cause it is kind of expensive) but the option is there for people who want it.

Also good for using Attack +50 Multiple when making normal attacks not using Additional Attack Ki Technique.

[vytzka]

However, abilities that are "Single" only apply to (Additional Attacks + 1) Attacks.  So if you have +50 Attack (Single) and Additional Attack +2, you can either make 3 attack with +50 bonus, or 4 attack, 3 with +25 bonus (+50 from tech -25 from penalty), and a fourth attack with -25.

Wait, what? You thoroughly lost me with that line.

[Lia Valenth]

However, abilities that are "Single" only apply to (Additional Attacks + 1) Attacks.  So if you have +50 Attack (Single) and Additional Attack +2, you can either make 3 attack with +50 bonus, or 4 attack, 3 with +25 bonus (+50 from tech -25 from penalty), and a fourth attack with -25.

Wait, what? You thoroughly lost me with that line.

Whet he means is you can either make one or two attacks. If you make one attack and augment it with the technique that one attack 'attacks' three times each with a +50 bonus. If you make two attacks you make both with the normal -25, however one of them is augmented with the technique, thus is worth three 'attacks' each at an effective +25 (+50 tech -25 multiple attacks). It might work better if we did not call the attack action and the attack (roll to hit vs their defence) the same thing.

So, it works like this;
Option A: Take 1 Attack Action: Use Technique, Make one special attack with three rolls and a +50 bonus.
Option B: Take 2 Attack Actions: Use Technique, Make one normal attack with -25, and one special attack with three rolls and a +25 bonus.

[|Highwayman|]

thanks for the clarifications,
so to sum up:

let's assume we have a character with 200 Final Attack, and Ambidexterity

normally he can make 3 attacks at 150 and an off-hand attack at 140, right?

with a Ki technique that has just the Attack Ability (single) +50 effect our character makes:
1 attack at 200 (his base 200 -50 for 2 extra attacks +50 for the technique)
2 more attacks at 150 (his base 200 -50 for 2 extra attacks, and the technique effect doesn't apply here, right?)
and one more off-hand attack at 140
is that correct?

now IF the Ki technique used had the Attack Ability (multiple) +50 effect, all of his attacks would be modified (including counterattacks) so he'd have 3 attacks at 200 and the off-hand attack at 190 - right?

and now, if he used a technique that grants +3 Additional Attacks, and also has the Attack Ability (single) +50 Ki effect his attacks would be at:
1 basic attack +3 attacks form the Ki technique at 200
2 more regular attacks at 150
1 off-hand attack at 140

if the technique provided 3 Additional Attacks and also had the Attack Ability (multiple) +50 effect his attacks would be at:
1 basic attack +3 attacks form the Ki technique at 200
2 more regular attacks at 200
1 off-hand attack at 190
and also all of his counterattacks this turn would also receive the +50 bonus

and last, if he used a Ki technique that grants +3 Limited Attacks as well as having the Attack Ability (single) +50 effect his attacks would become:
1 basic attack at 200
+3 limited additional attacks: one of them at 200, and the rest at 150
2 more regular attacks at 150
1 off-hand attack at 140

BUT if the technique had +3 Limited Attacks and the Attack Ability (multiple) +50 effect it would be:
1 basic attack at 200
+3 limited attacks: one of them at 200, and the rest at 150
2 more regular attacks at 200
1 off-hand attack at 190
as well as having +50 to all counter attacks this turn

is all of this OK?
and a bonus question: is there any way to make more than 1 off-hand attack in a turn?

[vytzka]

However, abilities that are "Single" only apply to (Additional Attacks + 1) Attacks.  So if you have +50 Attack (Single) and Additional Attack +2, you can either make 3 attack with +50 bonus, or 4 attack, 3 with +25 bonus (+50 from tech -25 from penalty), and a fourth attack with -25.

Wait, what? You thoroughly lost me with that line.

Whet he means is you can either make one or two attacks. If you make one attack and augment it with the technique that one attack 'attacks' three times each with a +50 bonus. If you make two attacks you make both with the normal -25, however one of them is augmented with the technique, thus is worth three 'attacks' each at an effective +25 (+50 tech -25 multiple attacks). It might work better if we did not call the attack action and the attack (roll to hit vs their defence) the same thing.

So, it works like this;
Option A: Take 1 Attack Action: Use Technique, Make one special attack with three rolls and a +50 bonus.
Option B: Take 2 Attack Actions: Use Technique, Make one normal attack with -25, and one special attack with three rolls and a +25 bonus.

*lightbulb*

Oh! I got it. For some reason I thought when they said "Single" they meant single and not one plus all additionals. Thanks for explaining.

[FearlessElbow]

However, abilities that are "Single" only apply to (Additional Attacks + 1) Attacks.  So if you have +50 Attack (Single) and Additional Attack +2, you can either make 3 attack with +50 bonus, or 4 attack, 3 with +25 bonus (+50 from tech -25 from penalty), and a fourth attack with -25.

Wait, what? You thoroughly lost me with that line.

Whet he means is you can either make one or two attacks. If you make one attack and augment it with the technique that one attack 'attacks' three times each with a +50 bonus. If you make two attacks you make both with the normal -25, however one of them is augmented with the technique, thus is worth three 'attacks' each at an effective +25 (+50 tech -25 multiple attacks). It might work better if we did not call the attack action and the attack (roll to hit vs their defence) the same thing.

So, it works like this;
Option A: Take 1 Attack Action: Use Technique, Make one special attack with three rolls and a +50 bonus.
Option B: Take 2 Attack Actions: Use Technique, Make one normal attack with -25, and one special attack with three rolls and a +25 bonus.

*lightbulb*

Oh! I got it. For some reason I thought when they said "Single" they meant single and not one plus all additionals. Thanks for explaining.

Ditto.  That's changed my understanding completely.  But it does mean that +whatever Attack (Multiple) is not exactly very useful at all until you get to at least Attack 200 (or have Kempo or similar).

Up until that point +whatever Attack (Single) will do just fine, even with Additional Attacks.

(The sad thing is that I hadn't realised that I hadn't realised this explanation.  And now that I have realised that I didn't realise the explanation, I realise that I should have realised all along that I didn't realise the explanation, and I realise I should have realised this explanation much quicker.  I hope you realise what I mean.)

[Heart of the Tiger]

(The sad thing is that I hadn't realised that I hadn't realised this explanation.  And now that I have realised that I didn't realise the explanation, I realise that I should have realised all along that I didn't realise the explanation, and I realise I should have realised this explanation much quicker.  I hope you realise what I mean.)

Meh...

[vytzka]

(The sad thing is that I hadn't realised that I hadn't realised this explanation.  And now that I have realised that I didn't realise the explanation, I realise that I should have realised all along that I didn't realise the explanation, and I realise I should have realised this explanation much quicker.  I hope you realise what I mean.)

How is your Spanish? You could apply for a translator position at FFG (or Anima Studio or whoever does those translations).

[alphawhelp]

thanks for the clarifications,
so to sum up:

let's assume we have a character with 200 Final Attack, and Ambidexterity

normally he can make 3 attacks at 150 and an off-hand attack at 140, right?

with a Ki technique that has just the Attack Ability (single) +50 effect our character makes:
1 attack at 200 (his base 200 -50 for 2 extra attacks +50 for the technique)
2 more attacks at 150 (his base 200 -50 for 2 extra attacks, and the technique effect doesn't apply here, right?)
and one more off-hand attack at 140
is that correct?

Correct

now IF the Ki technique used had the Attack Ability (multiple) +50 effect, all of his attacks would be modified (including counterattacks) so he'd have 3 attacks at 200 and the off-hand attack at 190 - right?

Correct

and now, if he used a technique that grants +3 Additional Attacks, and also has the Attack Ability (single) +50 Ki effect his attacks would be at:
1 basic attack +3 attacks form the Ki technique at 200
2 more regular attacks at 150
1 off-hand attack at 140

Correct

if the technique provided 3 Additional Attacks and also had the Attack Ability (multiple) +50 effect his attacks would be at:
1 basic attack +3 attacks form the Ki technique at 200
2 more regular attacks at 200
1 off-hand attack at 190
and also all of his counterattacks this turn would also receive the +50 bonus

Correct

and last, if he used a Ki technique that grants +3 Limited Attacks as well as having the Attack Ability (single) +50 effect his attacks would become:
1 basic attack at 200
+3 limited additional attacks: one of them at 200, and the rest at 150
2 more regular attacks at 150
1 off-hand attack at 140

No, he gets 3 regular attacks at 150, 3 limited attacks at 150, 1 off-hand attack at 140, and ONE of these attacks overall gets +50

BUT if the technique had +3 Limited Attacks and the Attack Ability (multiple) +50 effect it would be:
1 basic attack at 200
+3 limited attacks: one of them at 200, and the rest at 150
2 more regular attacks at 200
1 off-hand attack at 190
as well as having +50 to all counter attacks this turn

is all of this OK?

There are no examples of this in the book, but I think you are correct.  However, if he makes all those attacks on his turn, he cannot make any counterattacks if he gets attacked later.

and a bonus question: is there any way to make more than 1 off-hand attack in a turn?

Yes, but all off-hand attacks are -10 (-40 without Ambidextrous) so if you have attack 200, you can make 4 attacks (3 at -50 and 1 at -60) OR (2 at -50 and 2 at -60) or (1 at -50 and 3 at -60).

[FearlessElbow]

(The sad thing is that I hadn't realised that I hadn't realised this explanation.  And now that I have realised that I didn't realise the explanation, I realise that I should have realised all along that I didn't realise the explanation, and I realise I should have realised this explanation much quicker.  I hope you realise what I mean.)

How is your Spanish? You could apply for a translator position at FFG (or Anima Studio or whoever does those translations).

Why, thank you. I..... Hey, waitaminnit!! 

[Spirit_Crusher]

and last, if he used a Ki technique that grants +3 Limited Attacks as well as having the Attack Ability (single) +50 effect his attacks would become:
1 basic attack at 200
+3 limited additional attacks: one of them at 200, and the rest at 150
2 more regular attacks at 150
1 off-hand attack at 140

No, he gets 3 regular attacks at 150, 3 limited attacks at 150, 1 off-hand attack at 140, and ONE of these attacks overall gets +50

Just to nitpick for fun, I believe that if it is a single tecnique that gives the + 50 and + 3 limited attacks, the + 50 has to be assigned to either the "normal" attack triggering the tecnique or one of the +3 additional, but not to any of the other attacks made that round.

[Sharpandpointies]

Just to nitpick for fun, I believe that if it is a single tecnique that gives the + 50 and + 3 limited attacks, the + 50 has to be assigned to either the "normal" attack triggering the tecnique or one of the +3 additional, but not to any of the other attacks made that round.

That's my understanding as well.

[|Highwayman|]

ok, everything's clear now - thanks a lot

[alphawhelp]

Just to nitpick for fun, I believe that if it is a single tecnique that gives the + 50 and + 3 limited attacks, the + 50 has to be assigned to either the "normal" attack triggering the tecnique or one of the +3 additional, but not to any of the other attacks made that round.

I can find no such text that supports this idea.  It also makes no sense to me on a conceptual level.