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[Swiftz0r]

Okay me and my friend got into an argument about this one.  The changes in Dominus, yea this should have already been figured out by now but w/e, we were arguing the whole deal with Ki Control and Use of Ki.  My point is that ANYTHING on the Ki chart require both and not just techniques, he claims that you only need Use of Ki to access things on the chart.  A clarification here would be pretty fantastic.

Also to add to this, does Ki Control specifically allow you to accumulate Ki (in addition to use and create Dominion Techniques)?  Or is it Use of Ki that allows a character to accumulate.  This whole argument has spawned off of the Improvised Combat Techniques Ki Ability.  I'm honestly okay with a one turn accumulation, but not if it would require like 3 or 4 turns to accumulate, I believe that would require the ability to accumulate.

[Spirit_Crusher]

Ki control is needed for dominion tecniques, use of ki is enough for ki abilities. There would be no point in separating the two otherwise.

[FearlessElbow]

Ki control is needed for dominion tecniques, use of ki is enough for ki abilities. There would be no point in separating the two otherwise.

I definitely agree that you need Ki Control for Dominion Techniques.  Absolutely.

However some Ki Abilities need Ki Control as well as Use of Ki, and in some cases, the reasons for one situation or the other don't seem all that consistent.

For me, a logical rule would be that wherever there is a direct nett change in Ki (either spent, transferred to someone else or transferred from someone else) as a result of using a particular Ki Ability, then you must be able to accumulate that Ki, and therefore must also have Ki Control.

For an example of why this is necessary, The Unification of Ki rule would otherwise ruin the principles of Characteristic Augmentation.  Under the old system, to boost your Dexterity from 10 to 13, you had to specifically spend 13 Dexterity Ki.  If you don't need to accumulate, Unification of Ki means you can suddenly just dump 13 Ki from your generic Ki pool, boost your Dex to 13 and actually INCREASE how much you have left to accumulate with Dexterity.  Which is nuts.

If you say that this Ki needs to be ACCUMULATED against Dex, then a) You need Ki Control, and b) it'll slow down the massive spamming of abilities like this.

For other abilities, where the Ki Cost/change is supposed to be from your generic pool, I'd say it still needs Ki Control, but doesn't need to be against any characteristic as long as it doesn't exceed your TOTAL accumulations (Ki Transmission already has this rule, but without needing Ki Control and therefore without necessarily being able to accumulate at all, which makes no sense).

The odd situation occurs when you have an ability that works on its own without a Ki Cost, but can be boosted with Ki being spent (e.g. Armour of Arcane Energy).  My take would be that if you have Use of Ki you can get the base ability, but you need Ki Control to be able to boost it.

[Sharpandpointies]

The problem is that Dominus Exxet's 'clarification' that everything needs to be accumulated, even for the use of Ki abilities, really mucks up Ki Control and Dominion Techs.

My own opinion is that Use of Ki allows for accumulation of Ki for use in abilities, but that Ki Control is necessary for the accumulation of Ki for Dominion Techs.  Essentially, Ki Control is the prerequisite for 'advanced' stuff (ie, Dominion Techs). 

Seems to be working so far. 

[Lia Valenth]

\For an example of why this is necessary, The Unification of Ki rule would otherwise ruin the principles of Characteristic Augmentation.  Under the old system, to boost your Dexterity from 10 to 13, you had to specifically spend 13 Dexterity Ki.  If you don't need to accumulate, Unification of Ki means you can suddenly just dump 13 Ki from your generic Ki pool, boost your Dex to 13 and actually INCREASE how much you have left to accumulate with Dexterity.  Which is nuts.

If you say that this Ki needs to be ACCUMULATED against Dex, then a) You need Ki Control, and b) it'll slow down the massive spamming of abilities like this.

I agree with this. If an ability needs X DEX Ki you would need to be able to accumulate that much, so you can get that much of a single type of Ki. Rather or not that means you need Ki Control I can not say. As I explain below, however, I believe that if you have 13 Ki Accumulation in DEX alone you should be able to do this without Ki Control either way. (But really, if you have 13 accumulation in DEX alone, and no Ki Control, you are already nuts.)

For other abilities, where the Ki Cost/change is supposed to be from your generic pool, I'd say it still needs Ki Control, but doesn't need to be against any characteristic as long as it doesn't exceed your TOTAL accumulations (Ki Transmission already has this rule, but without needing Ki Control and therefore without necessarily being able to accumulate at all, which makes no sense).

This I disagree on. If you do not have Ki Control, and thus cannot accumulate, you still have access to one round of "accumulation". I believe Ki Control allowing you to accumulate Ki only allows you to save it up over multiple rounds, anyone with Use of Ki has access to an amount of Ki per round equal to their Accumulation. This limits what you can do in one round, but most of these abilities can be activated on 6-12 Ki (which you will have in a single round) so they should be useable without Ki Control. Keeping the requirements of a single type of ki for abilities like increasing stats stops people from doing things like what you suggested, and explains how Ki Transmission can work without "accumulation".

On the other hand Sharpandpointies solution also works.

In any case, before Dominus Exxet, Ki Control was in no way needed for Ki Abilities, only Techniques. I do not believe they meant to change this, as that if they did they would have combined them into one ability.

If all Use of Ki does is allow you to get Ki Control it doesn't really do anything useful and may as well not exist.

[FearlessElbow]

The problem is that Dominus Exxet's 'clarification' that everything needs to be accumulated, even for the use of Ki abilities, really mucks up Ki Control and Dominion Techs.

My own opinion is that Use of Ki allows for accumulation of Ki for use in abilities, but that Ki Control is necessary for the accumulation of Ki for Dominion Techs.  Essentially, Ki Control is the prerequisite for 'advanced' stuff (ie, Dominion Techs).

Seems to be working so far.

In any case, before Dominus Exxet, Ki Control was in no way needed for Ki Abilities, only Techniques. I do not believe they meant to change this, as that if they did they would have combined them into one ability.

If all Use of Ki does is allow you to get Ki Control it doesn't really do anything useful and may as well not exist.

But even in the Core Rules there were some Ki Abilities that require Ki Control.

Ki Detection, and therefore Erudition both require Ki Control.  Which is why I said it's inconsistent.  Those abilities don't even involve spending any Ki at all, and yet they require Ki Control according to the book.  Whereas Destruction by Ki and Flightdo require spending Ki, but don't need Ki Control.  It's just a bit... odd.

And even in DE, there are abilities that don't specify Ki Control at all.  Of course, one of those is Technique Pushing, and if you don't have Ki Control you couldn't have the Techniques to push in the first place, so it would be an utterly pointless ability.

[Lia Valenth]

But even in the Core Rules there were some Ki Abilities that require Ki Control.

Ki Detection, and therefore Erudition both require Ki Control.  Which is why I said it's inconsistent.  Those abilities don't even involve spending any Ki at all, and yet they require Ki Control according to the book.  Whereas Destruction by Ki and Flightdo require spending Ki, but don't need Ki Control.  It's just a bit... odd.

Ki Detection and Erudation are under the same tree as Ki Control, there is no inconsistency in this. If an ability has a prerequisite it needs that prerequisite. The reason Detection and Erudation require Ki Control could be explained thematically, but they only need it mechanically because it is part of that tree. The fact that flight and Destruction by Ki do not have Ki Control as a prerequisite actually pretty well proves that you can use Ki without Ki Control, and supports my having access to one round of accumulation without it.

And even in DE, there are abilities that don't specify Ki Control at all.  Of course, one of those is Technique Pushing, and if you don't have Ki Control you couldn't have the Techniques to push in the first place, so it would be an utterly pointless ability.

This is actually an interesting point, and I do not have an answer. But it is important to note that the prerequisite for Technique Pushing is Use of Ki, so you do not need Ki Control to learn it. It may be useless without techniques, but this is more of an anomaly than anything else I have seen.

Ki Control is a prerequisite for quite a few abilities - Ki Detection, Technique Imitation, Combat Aura, and Physical Dominion, and by extension all the abilities that depend on them.
However Use of Ki opens up a lot as well - Weight Elimination, Presence Extrusion, Ki Transmission, Technique Pushing, Use of Necessary Energy, and Inhumanity, and all abilities that depend on them.

So, actually looking at the list, it looks like there are a lot of Ki Abilities that require Ki Control, but not all of them do. There is the official list of what base abilities require Ki Control and which just need Use of Ki, all abilities based on them can be obtained once you gain them. This is pretty much in black and white in the rulebook. How you rule the use of these abilities could be a different question.

[Sharpandpointies]

But even in the Core Rules there were some Ki Abilities that require Ki Control.

Ki Detection, and therefore Erudition both require Ki Control.  Which is why I said it's inconsistent.  Those abilities don't even involve spending any Ki at all, and yet they require Ki Control according to the book.  Whereas Destruction by Ki and Flightdo require spending Ki, but don't need Ki Control.  It's just a bit... odd.

Those are prerequisites, not 'needs them because of accumulation'.  Nothing wrong with that at all.

My own thought is simply that all Ki Dominions simply require Ki Control as a prerequisite.  Otherwise, Ki abilities follow their own tree, and accumulation can happen normally for them where needed (like increasing abilities).

And even in DE, there are abilities that don't specify Ki Control at all.  Of course, one of those is Technique Pushing, and if you don't have Ki Control you couldn't have the Techniques to push in the first place, so it would be an utterly pointless ability.

That just means 'don't bother buying Technique Pushing until you have purchased Dominions, because it's pointless to do so'.  :)  Sure, it might have been more logical to put it 'under' Ki Control, but it's not contradictory.

And anyone who does purchase it before they get Ki Control and some Dominions deserves to be whacked upside the head.  ^_^

[Pneumonica]

This is actually an interesting point, and I do not have an answer. But it is important to note that the prerequisite for Technique Pushing is Use of Ki, so you do not need Ki Control to learn it. It may be useless without techniques, but this is more of an anomaly than anything else I have seen.

It also deserves to be noted that the folks who write Anima have made a number of oversights in other areas as well, though many of those have been adjusted in later volumes.  An interesting question for those who speak other languages (not counting German, which I can do with significant effort) is whether Core Exxet changed this.

[Swiftz0r]

Okay so a simple finish to this is does multiple turns of accumulation require Ki Control or not?

[Lia Valenth]

Okay so a simple finish to this is does multiple turns of accumulation require Ki Control or not?

In so far as I can tell, officially: Yes.

[alphawhelp]

Okay so a simple finish to this is does multiple turns of accumulation require Ki Control or not?

No.  Several powers in the game explicitly require Ki to be spent and explicitly do not require Ki Control.

[Swiftz0r]

Okay so a simple finish to this is does multiple turns of accumulation require Ki Control or not?

No.  Several powers in the game explicitly require Ki to be spent and explicitly do not require Ki Control.

Not require Ki Control to buy but require Ki Control for multiple turns of accumulation.  i.e. Improvised Combat Techniques, which is specifically at question, suppose they want to use the +100 damage technique which is 18 Ki accumulated from Dex.  Does the player need Ki Control to accumulate for it.  As far as I can tell they do because Ki Control dictates that it is what allows a player to accumulate without it dissipating.

[alphawhelp]

Okay so a simple finish to this is does multiple turns of accumulation require Ki Control or not?

No.  Several powers in the game explicitly require Ki to be spent and explicitly do not require Ki Control.

Not require Ki Control to buy but require Ki Control for multiple turns of accumulation.  i.e. Improvised Combat Techniques, which is specifically at question, suppose they want to use the +100 damage technique which is 18 Ki accumulated from Dex.  Does the player need Ki Control to accumulate for it.  As far as I can tell they do because Ki Control dictates that it is what allows a player to accumulate without it dissipating.

there is nothing to support Lia's assertion that you cannot accumulate for multiple rounds without Ki control.  Ki accumulation is binary.  You can either do it or you cannot.  If you say you can accumulate without Ki control, then you accumulate as per the normal rules.  If you say you require Ki control to accumulate, then you need it to accumulate even 1 point of Ki.

[Sharpandpointies]

I'm with Alphawhelp here, which is why I prefer the idea that 'Use of Ki' allows one to use Ki for Abilities, whereas Ki Control is a prerequisite for one using Dominion Techs.